The 20th century journalist and social critic H.L. Menken once said, “We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children are smart.”
As a student, you may have been asked by a professor to respect classmate’s opinions, beliefs and suggestions. If you have taken a course on religion, you certainly have. If at any point you questioned why it is always appropriate for this to be asked of you, you are not alone.
The realm of immunity from rational and reasonable criticisms society affords to religious belief, its dogmas, its leaders and institutions is rather peculiar; and if you push me hard enough, I would argue it is both ill-advised and unconscionable. So, allow me to object to these societal mores, with all due respect.
Religious belief is not simply belief in a creator; it makes much greater and more ambitious claims than this. It makes unquestionable claims through revelations that God has illuminated his omniscient and omnipotent capabilities, while making moral prescriptions on matters including what we may eat, how we should treat our enemies, how and who we should have sex with and what we can and cannot do with our own genitalia, with a promise of judgment day in which those who have defied his sacred canons will experience an eternity of pain and misery. Yet, they say, God loves you!
These claims are implicitly endorsed by society’s demand for our unwavering respect.
In every other domain of discourse, we humans are typically only willing to respect other people’s beliefs, even though we may disagree, if they are based on merit. We do this if we feel we are given good reasons. This is why we choose not to respect those who deny that the Holocaust happened, or those who believe the world is flat.
If I were to stand in front of a classroom, and profess my belief that all men are not in fact equal and some are fit to be my slave, or that women as anything but obedient homemakers is an abomination, and attributed divine warrant for this declaration as a specially chosen prophet, NOBODY would be burdened with the obligation to RESPECT my belief.
A last ditch rebuttal to those who will inevitably say that I cannot evaluate all religious persons and beliefs based on a very small sect that evoke religious dogma to commit the most heinous acts, I will simply say that I do not do this; I do not need to. All I can do is judge these doctrines on the merits of its pretensions; it is against this that I hold religion accountable.
If we were free to call a spade a spade, we can rather easily conclude that those who presuppose theological prescriptions pertaining to morality and the human condition as eternal paragons belong at the margins of our society. This would be no different than how we appropriately dismiss astrological claims that the alignment of certain planets has direct implications in the outcomes of interactions between human beings.
One thing is clear. If I am wrong about this, I am bound for the gates of hell. I admit this without recourse. However, my inclination to publicly espouse these concerns in the wake of possible eternal damnation, demonstrate just how inadequate I find reasons for being religious are.
In the same manner in which Mr. Menken suggests, I will gladly allow the religious person to speak and make their point known, while also standing by their side in support of everyone’s freedom to believe and worship anything that may suit their fancy. But as far as “respecting” their religion’s intemperate and immoral claims, well, I suppose society will have to wait until I am provided with good reasons.
joshua4234 • Feb 3, 2010 at 10:06 pm
I can't give up hope because I don't have any. If in the unlikely event there is a god, it's totally up to him whether or not to reveal himself and give me the remarkable evidence, I'm not going to waste my time on something out of my control. And no no no, don't bring back this B.S. thing of 'just desire in your heart to want to know your god.' I was a christian for many years, and it was just me talking to myself or grasping for interpretations of the natural world to mean something (something anyone of any religion can do). Don't pray for me to find something, I am not looking, if anything you can pray to your god to get off his but and demonstrate himself. Events like the ones described in Matthew 27:52-53 would be a good start but definitely would need more. I sincerely hope you think a little deeper about this personal experience (which you left un-described) and whether or not it was actually such good evidence or whether it's something that someone of any religion could do or might happen to them (and probably has been claimed before).
brian_at_csuf • Feb 3, 2010 at 8:52 pm
Please do not be discouraged, and never give up hope. As you probably know, no good ever comes from comparing oneself with someone else. No matter what you believe, God loves you more than you can possibly imagine, and loves you no less than anyone else. No hoops to jump through–just a desire in your heart to want to know God. Please keep your eyes open for that proof you are looking for. I pray that you find it soon. Best wishes with your studies at Fresno State. May peace be with you always!
joshua4234 • Feb 3, 2010 at 1:39 pm
Alright so if it would not be fair or your gods way for him to reward me (or forgive me or whatever hoops you say we have to jump through in order for him to allow us to be 'in unity with your god') any less than someone like Thomas seeing as how I have not given the same proof, I will continue to live my life as I am until I am given the undeniable proof, which was my position in the first place. Any attempt for your to convince me is futile since it all depends on the will of your god, so I guess there's nothing left to talk about. Good day sir.
brian_at_csuf • Feb 3, 2010 at 12:11 pm
I answered that question already if you read the answer. What are you, some lawyer that only wants yes or no answers? The situation you are asking about would never happen. It would NOT be fair, AND it would NOT be God's way. If everything being equal, and one person had some incredible spiritual or physical experience to help them to believe, while the other person was surrounded by atheists and never saw the works of God anywhere, yet both lived a good life, each one’s situation would be taken into account. God does not punish. What happens is all human beings fall short of perfection and thus cannot be in unity with God after death, but…
…there is an easier way. Since all fall short of perfection, it is a fantastic opportunity that Jesus paid the price for all sin. You can even pray, “Jesus I don't believe in you, but please forgive my sins. I don't want to be left out of heaven just because up until now I have no reason to have faith. I want the same chances as that other guy, St. Thomas. You know it is not fair that he got to put his fingers in your wounds, and I did not. Please help me to believe.” The gates of heaven may not open up and God reveal himself to you in an instant, but perhaps over time something will happen. Why not give God a chance? You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.
joshua4234 • Feb 2, 2010 at 10:51 pm
I'm going to ignore the rest of your comment until you ACTUALLY answer the question (you've evaded three times now). Assuming I continue to live a decent life (I have yet to harm anyones life or well being in any considerable amount) and someone of Thomas's time lives a virtually identically good life and we both have the same standard of evidence to believe this god exists but that person was given this proof by your god while I was not, Do you think it would be FAIR AND JUST for your god to punish me for not believing and reward that person for believing, even though we have the same standard of belief but by shear accident I wasn't born in that time?
Please answer in the form of 'Yes/No it is fair/not-fair because “some explanation,”' for clarity and to remain on topic, unless, of course, you are ashamed of your answer or are undergoing cognitive dissonance and desperately trying to keep your belief that your god is good while still believing I will be punished merely for not believing, in which case just evade the question again and terminate this conversation.
brian_at_csuf • Feb 2, 2010 at 5:01 pm
God is the fairest of judges. God will look through your own eyes, and play back with you your entire life, and then it will be very clear to the both of you if you should indeed spend eternity with God. If you never had an opportunity to have any faith, and you lived a good life (i.e. do until others as you would have then do until you, golden rule, etc.), I think your chances are good. If however, you indeed heard the message and rejected it, then I am not so sure. This goes back to the scenario of a plane crashing in the Pacific, and only a toddler survives the accident and somehow gets beached at an uncharted island, and grows up alone, never hearing about God from anyone. Would that person be damned? I think not. There are some, and it is a very controversial group, that believes that even Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus, made it. It was all part of God's plan that he would betray him, and in Judas's defense, he was trying with the best intentions to cajole Jesus “the Messiah” to rise up and free the Jews from the Romans as God promised the Jews with his covenant with them. Judas, judged through his own eyes and life's experience may have made it despite what he did, and despite the fact that he killed himself over what ended up happening to Jesus. Same goes for clinically depressed people that through no fault of their own are so despondent that they take their own lives. That is why it is imperative that no one ever pre-judge another person “…until you walk a mile in their shoes.” Jesus told the thief who was crucified next to him that this day he would be with him in paradise (though the thief did ask for mercy). I hope that answers your question. I've heard that heaven is a pretty nice place to retire. I hope I get to see you there someday. Be sure to refer to the “Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth” for more information (and start with a Gospel book and with one translated in today’s and not Shakespeare’s English for an easier read). I think it would be better to be sure about things before one dies, so it is well-worth a second look.
brian_at_csuf • Feb 2, 2010 at 9:01 am
God is the fairest of judges. God will look through your own eyes, and play back with you your entire life, and then it will be very clear to the both of you if you should indeed spend eternity with God. If you never had an opportunity to have any faith, and you lived a good life (i.e. do until others as you would have then do until you, golden rule, etc.), I think your chances are good. If however, you indeed heard the message and rejected it, then I am not so sure. This goes back to the scenario of a plane crashing in the Pacific, and only a toddler survives the accident and somehow gets beached at an uncharted island, and grows up alone, never hearing about God from anyone. Would that person be damned? I think not. There are some, and it is a very controversial group, that believes that even Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus, made it. It was all part of God's plan that he would betray him, and in Judas's defense, he was trying with the best intentions to cajole Jesus “the Messiah” to rise up and free the Jews from the Romans as God promised the Jews with his covenant with them. Judas, judged through his own eyes and life's experience may have made it despite what he did, and despite the fact that he killed himself over what ended up happening to Jesus. Same goes for clinically depressed people that through no fault of their own are so despondent that they take their own lives. That is why it is imperative that no one ever pre-judge another person “…until you walk a mile in their shoes.” Jesus told the thief who was crucified next to him that this day he would be with him in paradise (though the thief did ask for mercy). I hope that answers your question. I've heard that heaven is a pretty nice place to retire. I hope I get to see you there someday. Be sure to refer to the “Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth” for more information (and start with a Gospel book and with one translated in today’s and not Shakespeare’s English for an easier read). I think it would be better to be sure about things before one dies, so it is well-worth a second look.
joshua4234 • Feb 1, 2010 at 10:41 pm
You mean to tell me you think I'd rather be damned for the rest of eternity than evangelize and do hard work for a god that has demonstrated his existence to me beyond a doubt?! Do you think I'm that stubborn and stupid? lol you can't seriously think this is a good point, can you?
I'm going to ignore the rest of your comment until you ACTUALLY answer the question (you've evaded twice now) on whether or not you think it would be fair for me to suffer for eternity while Thomas gets a reward, even though we both had the same standard of belief and it's a mere accident I was born in this time instead of his. Can you answer it please?
brian_at_csuf • Feb 1, 2010 at 9:18 pm
Yes, without faith you would not believe something unless you had proof. Point established. I am able to believe in things I do not have proof of because I have faith. Glad you have an open mind, though it is an open mind with conditions.
Why not talk to more people about why they believe instead of concluding that it is simple human motivation? Self-motivation has nothing to do with it in my experience.
By definition a miracle is not something that would occur on demand or over and over again so that it could be documented. However the Vatican will not elevate someone to sainthood unless there are documented miracles, such as medical conditions that go away without any explanation (x-rays before and after for example). If there were cameras and scientific instruments everywhere documenting every miracle, then why would anyone need faith? That is the point: one must believe.
As for Thomas, who much is given, much is to be expected. By his privilege to see and touch things for himself, he ended up evangelizing for the rest of his life, eventually ending up in India (on foot). I am not so sure I would want to trade places with him! Perhaps it is fair after all. If you had an opportunity to see for yourself, would you trust in the Lord to lead you to places you never expected to go, and do things you never expected to do? Perhaps it is safer to stay secure in your doubt, and not take that leap of faith. May God bless you and keep you. I wish you all the best in your quest to find the truth.
joshua4234 • Feb 1, 2010 at 1:53 pm
And the default position is to not believe the things we don't know until there is good evidence to support it. My mind is not closed to anything if they can be demonstrated to be true.
All these random examples of things that have seem to be off topic just show me that people can motivate themselves with all kinds of beliefs, independent of the truth of the belief. Therefore their being motivated is of no help to me in figuring out if what they believe is actually true.
Again, what method do you have for figuring out if these claimed events of 'miracles' are actually true and accurate?
So are you going to ignore my question about whether or not it's fair that Thomas was given undeniable evidence while I am not, and even if we both found faith to be insufficient to believe, he would be given a reward while I was not?
brian_at_csuf • Feb 1, 2010 at 12:24 pm
Being a skeptic is a good thing, so I am glad that you question what you read. Given how many urban legends are spread via chain emails on the internet, it is refreshing to know some would question stuff like that rather than forward it on. However I hope you have not closed your mind to other possibilities, because there are many unknown things yet to be discovered.
Just look at the last 200 years of scientific discovery and wonder what documented conventions are going to be thrown out in the coming years. Have you been enlightened by your college education to the point that you now know everything, and billions of fellow humans that believe in a god are just a bunch of gullible fools for believing in the spiritual? Are the monks that live on the mountains of Tibet a bunch of quaint hippy-types that like some kind of simple life despite the persecution and death they have faced? Are the Jewish people that have moved back to Israel doing so because it is the best place to live and there are better jobs there? Is India one country or did it split into primarily Hindu and Muslim states despite Gandhi’s wish that it would remain united? Did Cassie Bernall deny her faith so she would be spared the bullet in the massacre at Columbine? Would our great nation's founding fathers defy death to do what they did if they did not believe it was the will of God that America came to be a united republic? Please do not dismiss what you do not yet understand. I challenge you to seek out why so many people and cultures believe in a god rather than spend all your efforts convincing them otherwise.
Ask the people at Santhome Cathedral in Chennai, India that have old mosaics documenting what “Doubting” Thomas the Apostle did in the year 72 that caused them to believe. Their church was spared when the Tsunamis hit a few years back. There is a legendary post that Thomas claimed the flood waters would never cross, and miraculously it did not. Wow, only a fool would believe in such mumbo-jumbo, right? I wonder why they believe in such stories. It is their faith that allows them to believe.
I'm not going to try to prove to you what Jesus did when he was here. The stories of what he did were passed down from the eye-witnesses through many generations of believers. What Christians do is to test the “fruits” of the spirit. The eye witnesses were given more than the gift of faith so that they could spread the good news. Most of them were simple folk like fishermen that would never have had the courage to speak to the educated Greek philosophers or the citizens of Rome, and yet they did, otherwise why did those people adopt Christianity as their own? There are many spiritual gifts beside faith and no one has them all. You are on your own life's path, and perhaps until now there has been nothing to help you believe in the unseen. I hope you will at least open your mind to other possibilities, and keep searching for the truth.
joshua4234 • Feb 1, 2010 at 12:23 am
I am sorry you find faith to be a gift worth having. I have a goal of believing as many true things as possible and as little false things as possible and I find faith to be terrible way to achieve this. I set a standard to believe a certain type of claim and hold all claims in that category to the same scrutiny.
What standard do you use to conclude that these claims about Jesus actually occurred?
If I grant for sake of argument that this god did exist and those who believe it receive a reward (or escape a punishment) and both Thomas (or someone of his time) and myself found faith to be an unacceptable justification to believe something, would it be just or fair that Thomas (or someone of his time) was given such undeniable proof and no longer needed faith to believe but I was not and, because of this shear accident of birth completely out of my control, I am being punished while he is being rewarded, even though we used the same standard to decipher what is true?
I have not been given sufficient justification to believe that anything ‘spiritual’ in nature exists. In fact, I have not been given a coherent definition of what something ‘spiritual’ is and by what means it interacts with the natural world and how we can detect this interaction.
brian_at_csuf • Jan 31, 2010 at 11:22 pm
I am sorry you do not have the gift of faith to believe. Yes, of course without it you would not understand. Many that finally get faith to believe explain the experience like their eyes being opened for the first time.
It was easy when Jesus walked the Earth because he performed many miracles that people were able to observe with their own eyes. They did not need much faith to believe because they had their proof. Even someone as close to Jesus as Thomas the Apostle did not believe until he was able to put his fingers in his wounds. For the first 300 years of the early Church all Christians regularly performed miracles in his name. It was much easier to believe in God during that time, and of course early Christianity spread rapidly.
I myself have had my own experience which proves to me that God does indeed exist. It would be like observing some scientific phenomenon which I cannot recreate, and only I witness. Would other scientists believe me? Probably not. I wish that you have some experience someday that helps you to believe. To the unbeliever there is nothing physical that proves anything of spiritual nature, but the believer–once awakened–sees small miracles that happen every day. Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will be opened to you.
joshua4234 • Jan 30, 2010 at 5:14 pm
Well it is not clear to me that the author believes in no god, even though he may. He may just disagree with what kind of god he thinks exists and abhor religion. As for myself, I do not believe in any gods, not because of what some religious person does but because I have not been convinced that it's actually true. I find the evidence to be insufficient to support the claims. Regardless, both the author and I can judge the dogma of the religion on it's own merit. I judge the ideas expressed within the religion itself, not just some individual or the supposed god.
I never understand what people are thinking when they say you need to have a relationship with a god. I was a Christian for quite some time in the past, and I was trying to do all these things like have a relationship with their god, but he never came to me and I never heard him, it was just me talking to myself or trying to interpret things in the natural world for something he's trying to tell me, both things I could do without him actually existing.
Hmm, not sure what you mean by spirit. I know there's the body and then there's the mind, a product of the body, but I don't know where the spirit is. And you could study the brain and the parts that are active during certain functions and know which part performs the functions that give us the ability for moral reasoning or a conscience, like the anterior prefrontal cortex. And people can have a different sense of conscience than you, but they do not just become a sociopath from not listening to what you think it should be telling them. Just look up psychopathy or sociopathy on wiki for more info.
Stuff like your last two paragraphs is largely gibberish to me or just people who don't believe in general. We don't think there is good evidence to suppose that it's true. Just imagine someone telling you that you have to balance your chakras to achieve true peace and happiness. It's just white noise.
joshua4234 • Jan 30, 2010 at 9:14 am
Well it is not clear to me that the author believes in no god, even though he may. He may just disagree with what kind of god he thinks exists and abhor religion. As for myself, I do not believe in any gods, not because of what some religious person does but because I have not been convinced that it's actually true. I find the evidence to be insufficient to support the claims. Regardless, both the author and I can judge the dogma of the religion on it's own merit. I judge the ideas expressed within the religion itself, not just some individual or the supposed god.
I never understand what people are thinking when they say you need to have a relationship with a god. I was a Christian for quite some time in the past, and I was trying to do all these things like have a relationship with their god, but he never came to me and I never heard him, it was just me talking to myself or trying to interpret things in the natural world for something he's trying to tell me, both things I could do without him actually existing.
Hmm, not sure what you mean by spirit. I know there's the body and then there's the mind, a product of the body, but I don't know where the spirit is. And you could study the brain and the parts that are active during certain functions and know which part performs the functions that give us the ability for moral reasoning or a conscience, like the anterior prefrontal cortex. And people can have a different sense of conscience than you, but they do not just become a sociopath from not listening to what you think it should be telling them. Just look up psychopathy or sociopathy on wiki for more info.
Stuff like your last two paragraphs is largely gibberish to me or just people who don't believe in general. We don't think there is good evidence to suppose that it's true. Just imagine someone telling you that you have to balance your chakras to achieve true peace and happiness. It's just white noise.
brian_at_csuf • Jan 30, 2010 at 2:00 am
It sounds like you would like to do whatever you would like with no regrets, with no religion or person telling you how to run your life. Born to be wild? I think you may have gotten the wrong impression about religion. Many lose their faith because of something that a religious person did. One cannot blame an entire religion or God because of something that an imperfect person did. It is easy to fall into that trap. Nobody is perfect; only God is perfection and pure love.
God is all about relationships–with God and with one another. A religion helps to facilitate these relationships in a community of God’s children on Earth. Many people have misunderstood images of God such as the aloof creator, the punisher, or the deal-maker. God is a “with” God. God is with you when you suffer and with you in your joy. God wants to be a part of your life, and the lives of all of God's children. If you never talk to God, how can you expect to have a relationship with God? The same would go for a couple–if the couple never talks to one another or spends quality time together the relationship fails. Relationships foster love, and the source of all love is God. It is not easy to truly love one another without going back to the source for some spiritual food.
Denying the urges of the human body is not done because of religion””it is done to train one’s spirit. Athletes exercise and students study””both examples of training that is done to improve the body or the mind that may not always be the easiest or most fun thing to do. The same goes for denying one’s self. Seeking too much comfort in worldly activities does not help train one’s spirit. The flesh can shame the spirit if the spirit is not trained to be strong and say no to the body and the mind. If one cannot resist small temptations in life, then one will not be able to overcome much bigger temptations. To help with this effort we are all born with a conscience. This conscience is trained as well. If a person is about to do something that would do some damage to a relationship with God or another person, and does not listen to their conscience, eventually the person will feel nothing. They will develop a false conscience also known as self-delusion. The worst-case scenario is a socio-path.
Worldly activities give a person a short-term happiness. Only everlasting happiness can be found in relationships with God and one another.
If you keep your eyes on what is above, then you will be on the right path to salvation. The road is not always easy, but the journey is well-worth it at the end.
joshua4234 • Jan 30, 2010 at 12:28 am
You can think that not respecting ideas is dehumanizing all you want, and you have the right to think that but I have no obligation under the Constitution to treat that idea with respect and give it more merit than it deserves.
NO, some opinions and beliefs are better than others. If someone wants to respect an opinion or belief they can, but we have no OBLIGATION to do so, and if you end up on the fringe of society because you hold a belief that most people find reprehensible or moronic that's just how it is. This not happening is not guaranteed by the Constitution.
Here's an example that hopefully you can understand. Let's say a Senator of CA makes a statement saying something like 'Though I think all races and genders deserve the same rights, I think white males are more intelligent and productive than Hispanics, Blacks, or women.' Do you think he will be re-elected? Isn't it his freedom to hold that opinion? Do we have to respect it and pretend it's equally valid when it's time for another election? Chances are people will not like his opinion and challenge him on it and not vote for him or hang out with him or put him in positions of authority (being pushed to the fringe). The same goes for someone who believes that they were abducted by aliens and took a ride on a ship into space and got probed.
Nobody is telling you that you can't be religious or hold a belief like the Senator or the person saying they were abducted by aliens, but it's my right to say they are completely idiotic and asinine beliefs and I don't have to pretend they aren't as stupid as they are just because you have the right to believe them.
brian_at_csuf • Jan 29, 2010 at 6:00 pm
It sounds like you would like to do whatever you would like with no regrets, with no religion or person telling you how to run your life. Born to be wild? I think you may have gotten the wrong impression about religion. Many lose their faith because of something that a religious person did. One cannot blame an entire religion or God because of something that an imperfect person did. It is easy to fall into that trap. Nobody is perfect; only God is perfection and pure love.
God is all about relationships–with God and with one another. A religion helps to facilitate these relationships in a community of God’s children on Earth. Many people have misunderstood images of God such as the aloof creator, the punisher, or the deal-maker. God is a “with” God. God is with you when you suffer and with you in your joy. God wants to be a part of your life, and the lives of all of God's children. If you never talk to God, how can you expect to have a relationship with God? The same would go for a couple–if the couple never talks to one another or spends quality time together the relationship fails. Relationships foster love, and the source of all love is God. It is not easy to truly love one another without going back to the source for some spiritual food.
Denying the urges of the human body is not done because of religion””it is done to train one’s spirit. Athletes exercise and students study””both examples of training that is done to improve the body or the mind that may not always be the easiest or most fun thing to do. The same goes for denying one’s self. Seeking too much comfort in worldly activities does not help train one’s spirit. The flesh can shame the spirit if the spirit is not trained to be strong and say no to the body and the mind. If one cannot resist small temptations in life, then one will not be able to overcome much bigger temptations. To help with this effort we are all born with a conscience. This conscience is trained as well. If a person is about to do something that would do some damage to a relationship with God or another person, and does not listen to their conscience, eventually the person will feel nothing. They will develop a false conscience also known as self-delusion. The worst-case scenario is a socio-path.
Worldly activities give a person a short-term happiness. Only everlasting happiness can be found in relationships with God and one another.
If you keep your eyes on what is above, then you will be on the right path to salvation. The road is not always easy, but the journey is well-worth it at the end.
joshua4234 • Jan 29, 2010 at 4:28 pm
You can think that not respecting ideas is dehumanizing all you want, and you have the right to think that but I have no obligation under the Constitution to treat that idea with respect and give it more merit than it deserves.
NO, some opinions and beliefs are better than others. If someone wants to respect an opinion or belief they can, but we have no OBLIGATION to do so, and if you end up on the fringe of society because you hold a belief that most people find reprehensible or moronic that's just how it is. This not happening is not guaranteed by the Constitution.
Here's an example that hopefully you can understand. Let's say a Senator of CA makes a statement saying something like 'Though I think all races and genders deserve the same rights, I think white males are more intelligent and productive than Hispanics, Blacks, or women.' Do you think he will be re-elected? Isn't it his freedom to hold that opinion? Do we have to respect it and pretend it's equally valid when it's time for another election? Chances are people will not like his opinion and challenge him on it and not vote for him or hang out with him or put him in positions of authority (being pushed to the fringe). The same goes for someone who believes that they were abducted by aliens and took a ride on a ship into space and got probed.
Nobody is telling you that you can't be religious or hold a belief like the Senator or the person saying they were abducted by aliens, but it's my right to say they are completely idiotic and asinine beliefs and I don't have to pretend they aren't as stupid as they are just because you have the right to believe them.
joshua4234 • Jan 29, 2010 at 9:27 am
lol, sigh. It's obvious that all men are not literally equal with equally valid ideas because we are all very different, and those people with ridiculous ideas will not be taken seriously by society and just pushed to the fringe (like how many people would vote a person into office who believes he was abducted by aliens and probed?), but the phrase 'all men are created equal' is used to mean that we all deserve certain rights that shouldn't be taken from us, like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (further written out in our bill of rights). Way to be too literal and miss the actual point.
He's saying he will give 'proper acceptance or courtesy' to a person's right to say something, but the point is that he does not have to respect their ideas or what they actually say.
You rest your case, and it fails miserably.
Anonymous • Jan 29, 2010 at 4:42 pm
Respect = proper acceptance or courtesy
Not properly accepting an idea or what they say as an individual opinion is not respecting the other person. Giving respect only to a right and not a belief is really dehumanizing.
And no, the point is that those arguing this case do not believe all men were created equal in the opinions as well as their belief. Your opinions and beliefs are equal to mine, because at best it is simply your own stance on issues regarding life on this planet and life off it. Ironically I can respect your individuality and thinking as a valid opinion and belief, right up until it crosses liberty by myself being “pushed to the fringe” because I believe in God or Spirituality.
You don’t have to agree, but you do have to allow my view without demeaning me as less than your equal. That’s what “all men are created equal” means, and it’s something we as Americans have yet to reach but strive for daily. Let’s take a page from history and not digress in our American progress by the ideology and intolerance in this article.
It’s about as realistic to say that religion can push everyone with no religion to the fringe as it is to say everyone who doesn’t agree with religion can push those who do to it. Think about it.
Frankly, your opinion is yours right up until it becomes intolerant of mine. I’m not knocking down your door forcing you to worship anything.
simplyshocked • Jan 29, 2010 at 8:43 am
“If I were to stand in front of a classroom, and profess my belief that all men are not in fact equal…”
“…we can rather easily conclude that those who presuppose theological prescriptions pertaining to morality and the human condition… belong at the margins of our society.”
(So I suppose you do in fact believe those who hold religion are not themselves equal to you and should not be given an equal stance in our society. You make your own argument against yourself.)
“I will gladly allow the religious person to speak and make their point… standing by their side in support of everyone’s freedom to believe and worship anything that may suit their fancy.”
(Respect – proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment.)
“But as far as “respecting” their religion’s intemperate and immoral claims, well, I suppose society will have to wait until I am provided with good reasons.”
“So, allow me to object to these societal mores, with all due respect. “
(Actually, no “due” respect has been given on your part.)
(I rest my case, in your own words.)
joshua4234 • Jan 29, 2010 at 1:27 am
lol, sigh. It's obvious that all men are not literally equal with equally valid ideas because we are all very different, and those people with ridiculous ideas will not be taken seriously by society and just pushed to the fringe (like how many people would vote a person into office who believes he was abducted by aliens and probed?), but the phrase 'all men are created equal' is used to mean that we all deserve certain rights that shouldn't be taken from us, like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (further written out in our bill of rights). Way to be too literal and miss the actual point.
He's saying he will give 'proper acceptance or courtesy' to a person's right to say something, but the point is that he does not have to respect their ideas or what they actually say.
You rest your case, and it fails miserably.
simplyshocked • Jan 29, 2010 at 12:43 am
“If I were to stand in front of a classroom, and profess my belief that all men are not in fact equal…”
“…we can rather easily conclude that those who presuppose theological prescriptions pertaining to morality and the human condition… belong at the margins of our society.”
(So I suppose you do in fact believe those who hold religion are not themselves equal to you and should not be given an equal stance in our society. You make your own argument against yourself.)
“I will gladly allow the religious person to speak and make their point… standing by their side in support of everyone’s freedom to believe and worship anything that may suit their fancy.”
(Respect – proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment.)
“But as far as “respecting” their religion’s intemperate and immoral claims, well, I suppose society will have to wait until I am provided with good reasons.”
“So, allow me to object to these societal mores, with all due respect. “
(Actually, no “due” respect has been given on your part.)
(I rest my case, in your own words.)