On Sunday, three local Presbyterian churches completed a split from the nation’s largest Presbyterian denomination.
Last week, the Vatican announced it would make it easier for Anglicans to convert to the Catholic faith.
And on Oct. 12 of this year, Gov. Schwarzenegger approved the designation of May 22 as “Harvey Milk Day” in California.
These three recent events have one obvious thing in common: the issue of homosexuality in society.
When Prop 8 was all the rage last year, many people (myself included) saw it as a black and white issue. Those who were less religious supported gay marriage, while the more religious types were against it.
It is now apparent that it is much more complex. Presbyterians and Episcopalians have already come to the dreaded “s” word (schism) over it, and other denominations may soon follow.
The issue hasn’t attracted much water-cooler talk since the big marriage votes of 2008, but it is only a matter of time before the national media pulls it back out for another round of debate.
And since the talking heads on TV are taking a break from getting angry over the gay issue, let’s do the same. Take the anger and emotion out of your system right now, and look at this in the broad spectrum. I mean the really broad spectrum.
It isn’t every day that churches completely divide over an issue. The Methodist church split over slavery in 1844. The Mormon church split the exact same year when its prophet, Joseph Smith, was murdered (and has since had many breakaway “Fundamentalist Mormon” sects that continue to practice polygamy). And we all learned in school about the Catholic Reformation and Martin Luther’s 95 theses.
In other words, churches split over huge events. And as such, the lightning rod issue of gay rights may become one of the defining issues of our time.
More historical context: homosexuality was considered a criminal offense in Britain until 1967. It was considered a mental illness in the United States until 1973. Crazy, right? How about this: former California congressman Bob Dornan once quipped, “Don’t use the word ‘gay’ unless it’s an acronym for ‘Got AIDS yet?’” This was an elected official who served multiple terms in the House of Representatives.
As you can see, these types of “moral issues” tend to move only in one direction. When my dad started high school, being gay was listed as a mental illness. It is safe to assume that when my children begin high school it will not have found its way back on the list.
The Bible does contain passages condemning homosexuality. It also contains many rather gruesome passages that support slavery (conducting a Google search will yield many of these very quickly, though I advise doing so at your own risk).
I have attended Methodist churches my entire life, and it pains me to say that my ancestors were on the pro-slavery side of the 1844 Methodist split. However, that denomination reunited in 1939, this time with everyone agreeing that slavery was unacceptable. I am certain these new schisms will end in a similar fashion.
I realize that this is an extremely sensitive issue, and I was quite nervous about writing a column of this nature. But, in the end, we are talking about the private acts of consenting adults involving no one but themselves. It probably will make its way into history books one day, but I honestly wonder why it counts as an issue at all.
Opie • Oct 30, 2009 at 10:58 am
To George Lakoff,
It was apparent from your posting that you have not read Genesis 19, and if you have and actually believe as you stated that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for being inhospitality, you have been fooled by those who are either very ignorant of the scriptures or are intentionally trying to pervert the original story.
First off, Biblical writers and interpreters frequently used the words “know, or knew, or known” to tell the reader that someone had sex with someone else. For example, “Genesis 4:1 — And Adam KNEW Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. (I added the emphasis to the word KNEW and did so again in the scriptural passage below).
For someone to read the story of Sodom with Lot and the angels and interpret the meaning of the words “KNEW and KNOWNâ€Â to mean to get to know someone as in a gesture of friendship is not only an extremely ignorant interpretation, but illogical as well. Ignorant because they did not know the scriptural meaning of “KNOWâ€Â and it makes no logical sense for Lot to offer his daughter in an attempt to keep the men of Sodom from raping the angels, and it makes no sense for Lot to say to the men of Sodom, “I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly,â€Â and it makes no sense for the angels to strike the men of Sodom blind and let them wonder blindly in the dark all night while they escape from these men if the men came in friendship.
Only those with a poor understanding of the Bible could interpret the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah out of God̢۪s displeasure of the hospitality of these Sodomites.
I have inserted a King James translation of the story of Sodom below so that many may read it for themselves and be the judge as to whether Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for Sodomy or for not being hospitable to the angles. But as Caesar said, “Men willingly believe what they wish!â€Â (Julius Caesar; De Bello Gallico, iii. 18). I would only hope that they will be at least fair enough to not try and pervert the interpertation of the scriptures when they are very clear to those who study them.
Genesis 19
1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may KNOW them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not KNOWN man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
Opie • Oct 30, 2009 at 5:58 pm
To George Lakoff,
It was apparent from your posting that you have not read Genesis 19, and if you have and actually believe as you stated that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for being inhospitality, you have been fooled by those who are either very ignorant of the scriptures or are intentionally trying to pervert the original story.
First off, Biblical writers and interpreters frequently used the words “know, or knew, or known” to tell the reader that someone had sex with someone else. For example, “Genesis 4:1 — And Adam KNEW Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. (I added the emphasis to the word KNEW and did so again in the scriptural passage below).
For someone to read the story of Sodom with Lot and the angels and interpret the meaning of the words “KNEW and KNOWN” to mean to get to know someone as in a gesture of friendship is not only an extremely ignorant interpretation, but illogical as well. Ignorant because they did not know the scriptural meaning of “KNOW” and it makes no logical sense for Lot to offer his daughter in an attempt to keep the men of Sodom from raping the angels, and it makes no sense for Lot to say to the men of Sodom, “I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly,” and it makes no sense for the angels to strike the men of Sodom blind and let them wonder blindly in the dark all night while they escape from these men if the men came in friendship.
Only those with a poor understanding of the Bible could interpret the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah out of God’s displeasure of the hospitality of these Sodomites.
I have inserted a King James translation of the story of Sodom below so that many may read it for themselves and be the judge as to whether Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for Sodomy or for not being hospitable to the angles. But as Caesar said, “Men willingly believe what they wish!” (Julius Caesar; De Bello Gallico, iii. 18). I would only hope that they will be at least fair enough to not try and pervert the interpertation of the scriptures when they are very clear to those who study them.
Genesis 19
1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may KNOW them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not KNOWN man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
Opie • Oct 30, 2009 at 9:59 am
George Lakoff,
You better go and read the account again in Genesis. Lot even offered his own daughters for the men to have sex with if they would leave the visitors at his home alone. They came to his house and wanted the visitors (angels) to come out so they could rape them and Lot knew what they wanted. He tried to disuade the degenerates from raping the visitors by offering his own daughters. Lot knew the visitors were angels. Go read the account and stop relying on extremely twisted interpretations of the Bible. The Jews and Christians for thousands of years have unquestionably interpreted the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as a result of homosexuality gone wild. Why should we throw away thousands of years of teachings about Sodom and Gomorrah for some lame peverted twist on the story that is an insult to any intelligent being. The Biblical revisionists have taken this account way out of context to come up with the idea that God destroyed two cities because they did not offering cookie and milk to the visitors when they came into town. Go and peddle your trash interpretation someplace else.
Opie • Oct 30, 2009 at 4:59 pm
George Lakoff,
You better go and read the account again in Genesis. Lot even offered his own daughters for the men to have sex with if they would leave the visitors at his home alone. They came to his house and wanted the visitors (angels) to come out so they could rape them and Lot knew what they wanted. He tried to disuade the degenerates from raping the visitors by offering his own daughters. Lot knew the visitors were angels. Go read the account and stop relying on extremely twisted interpretations of the Bible. The Jews and Christians for thousands of years have unquestionably interpreted the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as a result of homosexuality gone wild. Why should we throw away thousands of years of teachings about Sodom and Gomorrah for some lame peverted twist on the story that is an insult to any intelligent being. The Biblical revisionists have taken this account way out of context to come up with the idea that God destroyed two cities because they did not offering cookie and milk to the visitors when they came into town. Go and peddle your trash interpretation someplace else.
George Lakoff • Oct 30, 2009 at 12:26 am
Uh, Cynthia…. Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of inhospitality. A careful reading of the actual text of the story reveals that homosexuality is not even remotely mentioned in any fashion. You’d have to do a lot of perverse twisting of the text to even hit at it having anything gay about. And the word “sodomy” has changed in meaning over time and varies based on location. In my state, it was a crime of “sodomy” if a married couple, male and female, had oral sex.
Satan authored homosexuality as much as he authored interracial marriages. People like you are the new racists of today and will fade into the past into a melting puddle of irrelevance as the rain of truth comes washing down on your deceitful and lying ways.
Oh, and the last time I checked, the greatest empire to fall, namely Rome, was led by a Christian emperor (Constantius) and this was attributed to his attempts to force Christainity on its pagan population, which bred distrust and disunity.
George Lakoff • Oct 30, 2009 at 7:26 am
Uh, Cynthia…. Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of inhospitality. A careful reading of the actual text of the story reveals that homosexuality is not even remotely mentioned in any fashion. You’d have to do a lot of perverse twisting of the text to even hit at it having anything gay about. And the word “sodomy” has changed in meaning over time and varies based on location. In my state, it was a crime of “sodomy” if a married couple, male and female, had oral sex.
Satan authored homosexuality as much as he authored interracial marriages. People like you are the new racists of today and will fade into the past into a melting puddle of irrelevance as the rain of truth comes washing down on your deceitful and lying ways.
Oh, and the last time I checked, the greatest empire to fall, namely Rome, was led by a Christian emperor (Constantius) and this was attributed to his attempts to force Christainity on its pagan population, which bred distrust and disunity.
Cynthia • Oct 29, 2009 at 9:30 pm
IF homosexuality was so “normal” as this wicked world would have us believe…then why were Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed by God? The word ‘sodomy’ being a word derived from the city of Sodom, because of their prevalent homosexual activities. The main reason this practice is so sinful is, because it is the OPPOSITE of Gods plan for bringing His spirit children to this world. It is satan who is the author of homosexual activity in an attempt to thwart Gods plan of salvation wherein spirit children have the opportunity to gain an earthy body and progress through their earthly experiences. Without the holy bonds of marriage between one man and one woman…the birth of children would cease to be!!!! What better way for satan to laugh in Gods face? Think about it!! The human race would literally fade away and become extinct!! There are a LOT of things now days that are done in SECRET and supposedly do ‘no harm’ to anyone else. Think again! How one thinks leaks out into society and eventually effects the WHOLE WORLD! Our world is becoming very sick emotionally and spiritually and history DOES have a way of repeating itself over and over again. Do we not learn from past mistakes and the fall of empires due to immorality?
Cynthia • Oct 30, 2009 at 4:30 am
IF homosexuality was so “normal” as this wicked world would have us believe…then why were Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed by God? The word ‘sodomy’ being a word derived from the city of Sodom, because of their prevalent homosexual activities. The main reason this practice is so sinful is, because it is the OPPOSITE of Gods plan for bringing His spirit children to this world. It is satan who is the author of homosexual activity in an attempt to thwart Gods plan of salvation wherein spirit children have the opportunity to gain an earthy body and progress through their earthly experiences. Without the holy bonds of marriage between one man and one woman…the birth of children would cease to be!!!! What better way for satan to laugh in Gods face? Think about it!! The human race would literally fade away and become extinct!! There are a LOT of things now days that are done in SECRET and supposedly do ‘no harm’ to anyone else. Think again! How one thinks leaks out into society and eventually effects the WHOLE WORLD! Our world is becoming very sick emotionally and spiritually and history DOES have a way of repeating itself over and over again. Do we not learn from past mistakes and the fall of empires due to immorality?
Esteban Cortez • Oct 29, 2009 at 10:52 am
This is my first semester on campus, and I read the Collegian on campus every Tuesday and Thursday (days I am on campus), and a part of me still wishes that I was on campus during the Prop 8 debate to see what people my age and the Collegian writers had to say about the issue. But this was an interesting read, Haisten. Props for publicly voicing an opinion on the issue.
Esteban Cortez • Oct 29, 2009 at 5:52 pm
This is my first semester on campus, and I read the Collegian on campus every Tuesday and Thursday (days I am on campus), and a part of me still wishes that I was on campus during the Prop 8 debate to see what people my age and the Collegian writers had to say about the issue. But this was an interesting read, Haisten. Props for publicly voicing an opinion on the issue.
J. Scott Coatsworth • Oct 29, 2009 at 7:40 am
Thanks, Halsten, for tackling this sensitive topic, and for putting your views out there. It’s great for us to hear your generation speaking out on this, and you should never be afraid to share your voice and thoughts with the world, especially since you are such an eloquent writer.
J. Scott Coatsworth • Oct 29, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Thanks, Halsten, for tackling this sensitive topic, and for putting your views out there. It’s great for us to hear your generation speaking out on this, and you should never be afraid to share your voice and thoughts with the world, especially since you are such an eloquent writer.
Opie • Oct 29, 2009 at 7:25 am
Raycol,
Where in the world did you find in the Bible any text to support your comments about homosexuality causing no harm — have you ever heard of AIDS, and spiritual death? The New Testament has multiple condeminations against homosexuality. The word homosexuality is not used in the Bible because the word “homosexuality” was not a word at the time of the writing of the Bible and the writers tried to use less offensive terms when referring to an sexual act that was considered highly immoral. I do not care what your web site says, I can read and what I have read makes it extremely clear that homosexuality is not part of God’s plan for happiness.
Opie • Oct 29, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Raycol,
Where in the world did you find in the Bible any text to support your comments about homosexuality causing no harm — have you ever heard of AIDS, and spiritual death? The New Testament has multiple condeminations against homosexuality. The word homosexuality is not used in the Bible because the word “homosexuality” was not a word at the time of the writing of the Bible and the writers tried to use less offensive terms when referring to an sexual act that was considered highly immoral. I do not care what your web site says, I can read and what I have read makes it extremely clear that homosexuality is not part of God’s plan for happiness.
Raycol • Oct 28, 2009 at 9:12 pm
While the Bible does prohibit sex between men (homosexuality), it can nevertheless be shown that the prohibition does not apply today when the sexual activity causes no harm. Also the prohibition does not apply today because it applied only to the ancient Israelite and Roman cultures. The Bible criticizes, but does not prohibit, sex between women. Full reasons for these conclusions are given on the Gay and Christian website (www.gaysandslaves.com).
Raycol • Oct 29, 2009 at 4:12 am
While the Bible does prohibit sex between men (homosexuality), it can nevertheless be shown that the prohibition does not apply today when the sexual activity causes no harm. Also the prohibition does not apply today because it applied only to the ancient Israelite and Roman cultures. The Bible criticizes, but does not prohibit, sex between women. Full reasons for these conclusions are given on the Gay and Christian website (www.gaysandslaves.com).