Can we please talk about the bigot in the free speech area, the guy I pass nearly every morning on my way to teach and nearly every evening on my way to further my education at a public state university?
The guy who screams at unsuspecting students as they walk by that they must “fear God,â€Â the guy who warns that homosexuals are a “blight on the Earth?â€Â
I am a firm believer in the right to free speech, and appreciate the space devoted to it on our campus, but shouldn̢۪t there be a limit?
Shouldn̢۪t we also respect the right to walk around this campus without feeling harassed and verbally assaulted?
Shouldn̢۪t we reserve that space for those who provoke meaningful conversations among our community, not to those who target and attack members of that community?
Of course, we should be allowed to our own beliefs.
But belief is a choice.
This is not a church. I did not sign up for graduate school at a public university to be scorned. There is not a crucifix on the new library being finished behind where this man spouts hate, nor a banner that says “Jesus hates you.â€Â
There is a peace garden, and this guy is stinkin̢۪ it up worse than the shit being spread out to help it grow. As this hate-monger̢۪s face reddens with ignorant anger, the sculpted face of Gandhi silently waits for this man to stop.
And I wait with him, only I̢۪m losing my patience.
Karen Eileen Sikola
Graduate Student
MFA: Creative Nonfiction
red herron • Jan 21, 2009 at 1:13 am
obviously MECHA is a RACIST group. I didn’t know that was up for discussion.
red herron • Jan 21, 2009 at 8:13 am
obviously MECHA is a RACIST group. I didn’t know that was up for discussion.
MECHA sucks • Nov 25, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Don’t ban the racist MECHA group from CSU Fresno —- simply ask administrators to not force taxpayers support the group and other students to fund it through activities dollars.
MECHA sucks • Nov 26, 2008 at 3:51 am
Don’t ban the racist MECHA group from CSU Fresno —- simply ask administrators to not force taxpayers support the group and other students to fund it through activities dollars.
dw • Nov 19, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Where do I start…
Well, the rantings in a two-bit college publication bear no comparison to the institutionalized hatred and homophobia that Proposition h8 represents. In other words, the crap in La Voz just don’t make the cut.
As for my comment about La Voz representing the views of the local Latino community: three years ago, two Collegian columnists upset with attacks on a former (Republican) president, challenged leadership in the Latino community to come forward and repudiate La Voz. There were no reports of any lesdership folks coming forth to do that, so they must’ve supported La Voz. That didn’t surprise me–more than a few people in the Latino community view the Mexican Mafia, Nuestra Familia and the other prison/street gangs as a kind of citizen army defending their community from interloping whites.
Oh yes, the trees. In the 1970s, Fresno State students weren’t the shinking violets they are now. The aggies, on more than one occasion in the late 1960s and early 1970s, beat up Latino students because of Cesar Chavez and the UFW. In the late 1970s, the Iranian students on campus were on the receiving end–people were just plain fed up with the pro-Shah/anti-Shah protests. The trees were used to hang signs and things that on at least one occasion caused the campus cops to call the county coroner prematurely. The 1980 edition of Vintage Days opened with two fire crews, the campus cops, and the coroner looking up into one of the trees deciding how to get that “object” down.
dw • Nov 20, 2008 at 12:40 am
Where do I start…
Well, the rantings in a two-bit college publication bear no comparison to the institutionalized hatred and homophobia that Proposition h8 represents. In other words, the crap in La Voz just don’t make the cut.
As for my comment about La Voz representing the views of the local Latino community: three years ago, two Collegian columnists upset with attacks on a former (Republican) president, challenged leadership in the Latino community to come forward and repudiate La Voz. There were no reports of any lesdership folks coming forth to do that, so they must’ve supported La Voz. That didn’t surprise me–more than a few people in the Latino community view the Mexican Mafia, Nuestra Familia and the other prison/street gangs as a kind of citizen army defending their community from interloping whites.
Oh yes, the trees. In the 1970s, Fresno State students weren’t the shinking violets they are now. The aggies, on more than one occasion in the late 1960s and early 1970s, beat up Latino students because of Cesar Chavez and the UFW. In the late 1970s, the Iranian students on campus were on the receiving end–people were just plain fed up with the pro-Shah/anti-Shah protests. The trees were used to hang signs and things that on at least one occasion caused the campus cops to call the county coroner prematurely. The 1980 edition of Vintage Days opened with two fire crews, the campus cops, and the coroner looking up into one of the trees deciding how to get that “object” down.
gm • Nov 19, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Wow DW. Someone points to the outrageous, racist and bigoted comments of La Voz and your response is… to call them racists and morons. What a powerful and intellectual response! The best part is that you argue against yourself. You write that La Voz speaks for many in the valley (you too DW?) and then say that people who criticize it are stirring the racial pot and playing the evil gay card. La Voz is stirring that pot DW, and I dare anyone to read it and conclude that it is anything but racist and homophobic.
It really is quite simple DW. Say that La Voz is racist and vile and reject it or embrace it and say you agree. Hiding behind name calling and insults is doing precisely what you accuse others of. I also have to say that I disagree with you that La Voz speaks for many in the valley. While there are certainly a few racist idiots in the Latino community just like every other group in society, the reality is that most reject that type of thinking. They are proud of who they are and where they come from, but they also understand that their lives are inextricably linked with the larger community and the many different people that make it up. Perhaps you haven’t been able to make that leap yet, DW.
One last question though. Just how would you suggest that students express their displeasure in the Free Speech area if the trees were still in place?
gm • Nov 19, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Wow DW. Someone points to the outrageous, racist and bigoted comments of La Voz and your response is… to call them racists and morons. What a powerful and intellectual response! The best part is that you argue against yourself. You write that La Voz speaks for many in the valley (you too DW?) and then say that people who criticize it are stirring the racial pot and playing the evil gay card. La Voz is stirring that pot DW, and I dare anyone to read it and conclude that it is anything but racist and homophobic.
It really is quite simple DW. Say that La Voz is racist and vile and reject it or embrace it and say you agree. Hiding behind name calling and insults is doing precisely what you accuse others of. I also have to say that I disagree with you that La Voz speaks for many in the valley. While there are certainly a few racist idiots in the Latino community just like every other group in society, the reality is that most reject that type of thinking. They are proud of who they are and where they come from, but they also understand that their lives are inextricably linked with the larger community and the many different people that make it up. Perhaps you haven’t been able to make that leap yet, DW.
One last question though. Just how would you suggest that students express their displeasure in the Free Speech area if the trees were still in place?
RDC • Nov 19, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Well if the white racists in California ‘Pro-prop 8ers’ (how that is racist beats me) are attacking the brown racists in California (Mechists, MECHA members, and other anti-Anglo leftists), then we sane people can be glad we’re not in the fray.
RDC • Nov 19, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Well if the white racists in California ‘Pro-prop 8ers’ (how that is racist beats me) are attacking the brown racists in California (Mechists, MECHA members, and other anti-Anglo leftists), then we sane people can be glad we’re not in the fray.
dw • Nov 19, 2008 at 6:51 am
Bubby, McCain’s name came up because the dying Republican Party and its minions have been thrashing around since the election busily playing the race and “evil gays” cards. The Newt went way over the top yesterday when he claimed the LGBT community was facist and a national security threat. Obviously, since they can’t catch Osama, they need a new boogyman. MECHA fills that role for the white racists of California.
dw • Nov 19, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Bubby, McCain’s name came up because the dying Republican Party and its minions have been thrashing around since the election busily playing the race and “evil gays” cards. The Newt went way over the top yesterday when he claimed the LGBT community was facist and a national security threat. Obviously, since they can’t catch Osama, they need a new boogyman. MECHA fills that role for the white racists of California.
Jared Harper • Nov 18, 2008 at 8:21 pm
This post clearly is particularly targeted to go off topic and point fingers at this mechi group. iit is a no brainer that someone hates that group.
How the hell did Mechi, Mccain, racism or any of the wrong topics get onto somethin about the condeming preacher…i think yor all ignorant for posting anything that goes off the topic.
and bubba your dingy, what is wrong with having friends of the same race. Hay im white as white gets and all my friends are white. there shouldnt be any pressure by society to make me want to mingle with others i cant help it i grew up in white neighborhoods.
Jared Harper • Nov 19, 2008 at 3:21 am
This post clearly is particularly targeted to go off topic and point fingers at this mechi group. iit is a no brainer that someone hates that group.
How the hell did Mechi, Mccain, racism or any of the wrong topics get onto somethin about the condeming preacher…i think yor all ignorant for posting anything that goes off the topic.
and bubba your dingy, what is wrong with having friends of the same race. Hay im white as white gets and all my friends are white. there shouldnt be any pressure by society to make me want to mingle with others i cant help it i grew up in white neighborhoods.
Bubby Brisk • Nov 18, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Nobody has been able to present any counterargument stating that MECHA is not a racist group or that the campus organization has only limited ties to the national organization. You can hop on this message board and claim whitey is keeping your people down, but the claim is empty if it can’t be backed up. Time and time again, successful Latinos and Chicanos are those that ignore the leftist Guevara, brown pride, Aztec pride, down with Anglos mindframe and try to find activities designed to overcome that cultural divide. Funny how people are on these boards claiming the other side is ‘ignorant’ when they can’t demonstrate anything that would indicate their group has any value.
Find a friend of a race other than your own, enjoy campus life, and renounce your membership in the fascist, counterproductive, and racist MECHA organization (or check out the links provided by GM). The American public will soon be a little more knowledgable about MECHA when students who really believe in unity come together to reject what this hate group represents.
And how the hell did McCain get in the conversation? When did his name become relevant? The election was three weeks ago and if you Mechists reject the American way of life, how does party politics interest you.
Bubby Brisk • Nov 19, 2008 at 2:56 am
Nobody has been able to present any counterargument stating that MECHA is not a racist group or that the campus organization has only limited ties to the national organization. You can hop on this message board and claim whitey is keeping your people down, but the claim is empty if it can’t be backed up. Time and time again, successful Latinos and Chicanos are those that ignore the leftist Guevara, brown pride, Aztec pride, down with Anglos mindframe and try to find activities designed to overcome that cultural divide. Funny how people are on these boards claiming the other side is ‘ignorant’ when they can’t demonstrate anything that would indicate their group has any value.
Find a friend of a race other than your own, enjoy campus life, and renounce your membership in the fascist, counterproductive, and racist MECHA organization (or check out the links provided by GM). The American public will soon be a little more knowledgable about MECHA when students who really believe in unity come together to reject what this hate group represents.
And how the hell did McCain get in the conversation? When did his name become relevant? The election was three weeks ago and if you Mechists reject the American way of life, how does party politics interest you.
dw • Nov 18, 2008 at 7:24 pm
I’ll swear, the campus racists must have IQs of minus 100. Obviously since your hero John McCain (who thoroughly demeaned himself in losing all sense of personal integrity during the campaign) lost, you now want to stir the racial pot on campus. It’s a shame the two large pine trees no longer stand behind the speaker’s podium in the Free Speech Area, otherwise I’d suggest students express their displeasure there with some of the farce being aired on this thread.
La Voz does express the views of many in the local Latino community–that was demonstrated several years ago when two of the campus neo-cons challenged the Latino community to publicly repudiate La Voz and the response was underwhelming. Believe me when I say that Anglos aren’t loved by the Latino communities in the Valley
dw • Nov 19, 2008 at 2:24 am
I’ll swear, the campus racists must have IQs of minus 100. Obviously since your hero John McCain (who thoroughly demeaned himself in losing all sense of personal integrity during the campaign) lost, you now want to stir the racial pot on campus. It’s a shame the two large pine trees no longer stand behind the speaker’s podium in the Free Speech Area, otherwise I’d suggest students express their displeasure there with some of the farce being aired on this thread.
La Voz does express the views of many in the local Latino community–that was demonstrated several years ago when two of the campus neo-cons challenged the Latino community to publicly repudiate La Voz and the response was underwhelming. Believe me when I say that Anglos aren’t loved by the Latino communities in the Valley
gm • Nov 18, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Walter,
Apparently you had a little trouble with your search. Here is the link:
http://www.aztlan.net/mechafresno.htm
Here is another one:
http://www.nationalmecha.org/documents/nationalconstitution.pdf
In the preamble of the MEChA constitution it specifically states the goal of liberating Aztlan.
It is nice to know that you reject that part of the MEChA constitution. I also am quite happy to read that you categorically reject La Voz de Aztlan and the vile, racist, bigotry spewed there. Perhaps the Fresno State chapter can publish a statement saying that explicitly. It was also interesting to read that your are opposed to Prof. Acuna and his belief in reclaiming Aztlan. Surely we will hear shortly your call to have his association with MEChA severed. At the very least he will be surprised to hear he is not a mechista any longer!
I have no doubt that most of the Fresno State MEChA members are simply interested in education and equality and certainly support those noble and necessary goals. For this reason I’m sure they will turn their backs on the racist and bigoted elements noted above. I’m also confident that they would not label someone, who supports the goal of “equality and justice for all,” as a racist simply because they disagree with them on how best to achieve that.
gm • Nov 18, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Walter,
Apparently you had a little trouble with your search. Here is the link:
http://www.aztlan.net/mechafresno.htm
Here is another one:
http://www.nationalmecha.org/documents/nationalconstitution.pdf
In the preamble of the MEChA constitution it specifically states the goal of liberating Aztlan.
It is nice to know that you reject that part of the MEChA constitution. I also am quite happy to read that you categorically reject La Voz de Aztlan and the vile, racist, bigotry spewed there. Perhaps the Fresno State chapter can publish a statement saying that explicitly. It was also interesting to read that your are opposed to Prof. Acuna and his belief in reclaiming Aztlan. Surely we will hear shortly your call to have his association with MEChA severed. At the very least he will be surprised to hear he is not a mechista any longer!
I have no doubt that most of the Fresno State MEChA members are simply interested in education and equality and certainly support those noble and necessary goals. For this reason I’m sure they will turn their backs on the racist and bigoted elements noted above. I’m also confident that they would not label someone, who supports the goal of “equality and justice for all,” as a racist simply because they disagree with them on how best to achieve that.
Walter Ramirez • Nov 18, 2008 at 2:59 pm
I am so disapointed at the lies people have to come out in other to say that MECHA is a racist gourp. Once again I am a proud Mechista and none of the statement above have been made by any mechista. NO Mechista in this chad has said anyhting against any race, just agians the ignorance that a lot of people show. None of the Mechistas has said anything like taking back Aztlan, your ignorance is supported by your racist assumtions. Latino, Indegenous, Afican Americans, Asians, as well as some Europeans have been targget of hate i this country, and all of as have struggle to seek equality and continue to struggle. None of this movement try to prove who has accomplish more than others, I am discusted to see so many ignorance. What this conversation and people putting comments aginst mecha are trying to do is divide people. I also google Mecha de fresno state and I did not find any of these comments, please check your sources. I am not going to follow through with this conversation anymor. Hector, Brother, just ignore these bunch of morons.
Justicia,Paz, Amor y Libertad”
“Ignorance is the most violent element of society.”
Emma Goldman
Walter Ramirez • Nov 18, 2008 at 9:59 pm
I am so disapointed at the lies people have to come out in other to say that MECHA is a racist gourp. Once again I am a proud Mechista and none of the statement above have been made by any mechista. NO Mechista in this chad has said anyhting against any race, just agians the ignorance that a lot of people show. None of the Mechistas has said anything like taking back Aztlan, your ignorance is supported by your racist assumtions. Latino, Indegenous, Afican Americans, Asians, as well as some Europeans have been targget of hate i this country, and all of as have struggle to seek equality and continue to struggle. None of this movement try to prove who has accomplish more than others, I am discusted to see so many ignorance. What this conversation and people putting comments aginst mecha are trying to do is divide people. I also google Mecha de fresno state and I did not find any of these comments, please check your sources. I am not going to follow through with this conversation anymor. Hector, Brother, just ignore these bunch of morons.
Justicia,Paz, Amor y Libertad”
“Ignorance is the most violent element of society.”
Emma Goldman
Ted Will I Ams • Nov 18, 2008 at 11:52 am
Sorry, GM…..I forgot to mention the ‘La Voz’ rag that the MECHA group collaborates and interfaces with. Our student fees support that as well. Good point.
Ted Will I Ams • Nov 18, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Sorry, GM…..I forgot to mention the ‘La Voz’ rag that the MECHA group collaborates and interfaces with. Our student fees support that as well. Good point.
gm • Nov 18, 2008 at 9:53 am
Google Fresno State and MEChA and here is some of what you will be treated to:
“God has cursed the Jews from time immemorial and they have been the curse of mankind since the beginning of written history.”
Hector Carreon, La Voz de Aztlan
“This Saturday, while a ferocious firestorm was devastating the City of Angels, Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa was shamelessly acquiescing to the sodomites on the steps of City Hall….The Mayor wasted time welcoming and speaking to hundreds of decadent homosexuals and lesbians…Supervisor Gloria Molina conspired with a group of nefarious Talmudic Jews.”
Ernesto Cienfuegos, La Voz de Aztlan
“President Hussein Obama Appoints Israeli Zionist as Chief of Staff”
Headline, La Voz de Aztlan
Just a small sampling. Pretty much speaks for itself, don’t you think?
gm • Nov 18, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Google Fresno State and MEChA and here is some of what you will be treated to:
“God has cursed the Jews from time immemorial and they have been the curse of mankind since the beginning of written history.”
Hector Carreon, La Voz de Aztlan
“This Saturday, while a ferocious firestorm was devastating the City of Angels, Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa was shamelessly acquiescing to the sodomites on the steps of City Hall….The Mayor wasted time welcoming and speaking to hundreds of decadent homosexuals and lesbians…Supervisor Gloria Molina conspired with a group of nefarious Talmudic Jews.”
Ernesto Cienfuegos, La Voz de Aztlan
“President Hussein Obama Appoints Israeli Zionist as Chief of Staff”
Headline, La Voz de Aztlan
Just a small sampling. Pretty much speaks for itself, don’t you think?
Hector Cerda • Nov 18, 2008 at 9:47 am
This is hilarious…JESSIE ”
“”Just because your parents were migrants and came to this land in search of employment, doesn’t mean you’re entitled to carve a major chunk of California and Oregon and Arizona and call it ‘Aztlan’ “””
I knew you would resort to using this racist comment which doesnt apply to me.
For the record, My family didnt migrate here. i am not mexican or latino or whatever you may assume i am.
but go ahead i challenge you to continue making comments. i know that wasnt your last.
Hector Cerda • Nov 18, 2008 at 4:47 pm
This is hilarious…JESSIE ”
“”Just because your parents were migrants and came to this land in search of employment, doesn’t mean you’re entitled to carve a major chunk of California and Oregon and Arizona and call it ‘Aztlan’ “””
I knew you would resort to using this racist comment which doesnt apply to me.
For the record, My family didnt migrate here. i am not mexican or latino or whatever you may assume i am.
but go ahead i challenge you to continue making comments. i know that wasnt your last.
Ted Will I Ams • Nov 18, 2008 at 9:46 am
What the machismo crowd in this forum fails to understand is that the group MECHA, not individuals or a specific people, are being targeted. Membership in a racist group like MECHA is a choice. Hector, Courtney, et.al., you guys seem to be resorting to the lowest common denominator in your attempt to win your childish argument.
Ted Will I Ams • Nov 18, 2008 at 4:46 pm
What the machismo crowd in this forum fails to understand is that the group MECHA, not individuals or a specific people, are being targeted. Membership in a racist group like MECHA is a choice. Hector, Courtney, et.al., you guys seem to be resorting to the lowest common denominator in your attempt to win your childish argument.
Stacy • Nov 18, 2008 at 8:16 am
Courtney,
who are you speaking of? You leftist mindset and failure to see what Mecha is really all about is a little more disgusting. Have you sat in on meetings? How are you an authority on the group?
Stacy • Nov 18, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Courtney,
who are you speaking of? You leftist mindset and failure to see what Mecha is really all about is a little more disgusting. Have you sat in on meetings? How are you an authority on the group?
Courtney Miller • Nov 18, 2008 at 12:43 am
This is disgusting. I don’t know what your deal is with MECHA or the people that have been continually targeted and persecuted for as long as I have been alive, but I can’t believe that you would put out such horrible statements. I am so disappointed in people after this entire conversation, and I am going to have to stop reading it because I am so completely appalled that people think like you. I wish I were still ignorant of your horrible horrible statements.
Courtney Miller • Nov 18, 2008 at 7:43 am
This is disgusting. I don’t know what your deal is with MECHA or the people that have been continually targeted and persecuted for as long as I have been alive, but I can’t believe that you would put out such horrible statements. I am so disappointed in people after this entire conversation, and I am going to have to stop reading it because I am so completely appalled that people think like you. I wish I were still ignorant of your horrible horrible statements.
Jessie Tamerhaak • Nov 18, 2008 at 12:05 am
and Jesse, your invitation should be taken as a threat and sounds borderline criminal. You should probably retract that last little posting of your’s.
Jessie Tamerhaak • Nov 18, 2008 at 7:05 am
and Jesse, your invitation should be taken as a threat and sounds borderline criminal. You should probably retract that last little posting of your’s.
Jessie Tamerhaak • Nov 18, 2008 at 12:00 am
Hector, (real name????)……you’re a sad sole. Keep believing you are an oppressed member and a living Incan or Aztec, or whatever the hell you claim. Just because your parents were migrants and came to this land in search of employment, doesn’t mean you’re entitled to carve a major chunk of California and Oregon and Arizona and call it ‘Aztlan’ and deport all the white skinned ‘ghosts.’ Keep believing these myths of oppression and you’ll surely get far in this country. Your membership in MECHA will not win you any points with the establishment. It’s probably work to your detriment.
I believe you were born a little after the time of the Zoot Suit Riots and the Bracero program, young man. You and Ernesto ‘Che’ can go ahead and think that you’re ‘freedom fighters’ and will one day overthrow the governments of the southwestern states. I’ll go ahead and concede these points. If you guys are able to do it, I myself will pack up and head back to Europe.
The fact that you are attending college in California at this moment is a testament to the fact that this nation provides opportunity to all people without regard for skin color (although Latino is technically within the white race last I checked — three major world races according to some smart anthropologists). Go ahead and piss on the flag and do whatever you want. You have proven the points of the many forum poster who say your organization is trash and doesn’t deserve a place on this fine campus.
Jessie Tamerhaak • Nov 18, 2008 at 7:00 am
Hector, (real name????)……you’re a sad sole. Keep believing you are an oppressed member and a living Incan or Aztec, or whatever the hell you claim. Just because your parents were migrants and came to this land in search of employment, doesn’t mean you’re entitled to carve a major chunk of California and Oregon and Arizona and call it ‘Aztlan’ and deport all the white skinned ‘ghosts.’ Keep believing these myths of oppression and you’ll surely get far in this country. Your membership in MECHA will not win you any points with the establishment. It’s probably work to your detriment.
I believe you were born a little after the time of the Zoot Suit Riots and the Bracero program, young man. You and Ernesto ‘Che’ can go ahead and think that you’re ‘freedom fighters’ and will one day overthrow the governments of the southwestern states. I’ll go ahead and concede these points. If you guys are able to do it, I myself will pack up and head back to Europe.
The fact that you are attending college in California at this moment is a testament to the fact that this nation provides opportunity to all people without regard for skin color (although Latino is technically within the white race last I checked — three major world races according to some smart anthropologists). Go ahead and piss on the flag and do whatever you want. You have proven the points of the many forum poster who say your organization is trash and doesn’t deserve a place on this fine campus.
Hector Cerda • Nov 17, 2008 at 11:32 pm
JESSIE TAMERHAAK if this is your true name – your comment:
“I’m also going to end by arguing that many Mexican-Americans who are a part of MECHA are NOT indigenous or ‘people of color”
You are wrong and should clarify cause you make no sense . I am an active member of M.E.Ch.A and we are people of color, we are Indigneous. I for one can trace my ancestors and people who all origniate from this continent.
if you believe “publicly funded” student organizations should bridge ethnic and social divide, your assumptions surely arent helping. And as a person you have every right to make change happen so that our organization doesnt recieve your “public funds” if thats what you belive. There are places called administration offices, courts, even branches of government that you can go to.
But im sure youd rather spend that time to post here. Oh by the way, when is our next meeting anyone? Im looking forward to continuing our hate speech, ethnic divide and our mission to disgrace this campus. To all memebrs i want to invite this JESSIE person, they seem like a perfect hate speech propogandist to add to our army of disgracers.
Peace
Hector Cerda • Nov 18, 2008 at 6:32 am
JESSIE TAMERHAAK if this is your true name – your comment:
“I’m also going to end by arguing that many Mexican-Americans who are a part of MECHA are NOT indigenous or ‘people of color”
You are wrong and should clarify cause you make no sense . I am an active member of M.E.Ch.A and we are people of color, we are Indigneous. I for one can trace my ancestors and people who all origniate from this continent.
if you believe “publicly funded” student organizations should bridge ethnic and social divide, your assumptions surely arent helping. And as a person you have every right to make change happen so that our organization doesnt recieve your “public funds” if thats what you belive. There are places called administration offices, courts, even branches of government that you can go to.
But im sure youd rather spend that time to post here. Oh by the way, when is our next meeting anyone? Im looking forward to continuing our hate speech, ethnic divide and our mission to disgrace this campus. To all memebrs i want to invite this JESSIE person, they seem like a perfect hate speech propogandist to add to our army of disgracers.
Peace
Jessie Tamerhaak • Nov 17, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Hate speech towards MECHA???—–that’s comic relief or the truth? …….
‘Mechista’s’ are a disgrace to this campus’ diversity and a group that hates the very nation it permits to organize and hold public meetings should in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM be publicy supported. MeChA really boils down to a group expressing an anti-American and hatefilled message. The cultist traditions it expouses should absolutely be publicized to give the California public a sense of the kind of trash being supported by student and taxpayer dollars.
Also, you folks really are uninformed—– i implore any of you to read a textbook not written and self-published by some Chicano studies professor from San Jose State or Northeast Texas State Gulfcoast South University.
Publicly funded student organizations should bridge the ethnic and social divide, bring groups together, and find common ground. MECHA is racist, divisive, undemocratic, and aims to dismantle what makes America great rather than bring students in
I’m also going to end by arguing that many Mexican-Americans who are a part of MECHA are NOT indigenous or ‘people of color.’ Being of majorty Spanish decent hardly qualifies you as a person of color. Comparing your plight to that of the African-American experience is a slap in the face to what great civil rights heroes have accomplished. Ernesto (Che), many of your socially conscious members should spend some time analyzing what your group is all about—–I’m guessing your numbers won’t be as strong.
Jessie Tamerhaak • Nov 18, 2008 at 4:05 am
Hate speech towards MECHA???—–that’s comic relief or the truth? …….
‘Mechista’s’ are a disgrace to this campus’ diversity and a group that hates the very nation it permits to organize and hold public meetings should in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM be publicy supported. MeChA really boils down to a group expressing an anti-American and hatefilled message. The cultist traditions it expouses should absolutely be publicized to give the California public a sense of the kind of trash being supported by student and taxpayer dollars.
Also, you folks really are uninformed—– i implore any of you to read a textbook not written and self-published by some Chicano studies professor from San Jose State or Northeast Texas State Gulfcoast South University.
Publicly funded student organizations should bridge the ethnic and social divide, bring groups together, and find common ground. MECHA is racist, divisive, undemocratic, and aims to dismantle what makes America great rather than bring students in
I’m also going to end by arguing that many Mexican-Americans who are a part of MECHA are NOT indigenous or ‘people of color.’ Being of majorty Spanish decent hardly qualifies you as a person of color. Comparing your plight to that of the African-American experience is a slap in the face to what great civil rights heroes have accomplished. Ernesto (Che), many of your socially conscious members should spend some time analyzing what your group is all about—–I’m guessing your numbers won’t be as strong.
sencia • Nov 17, 2008 at 7:02 pm
I can understand why someone (this anonymous person) might think mecha is something
bad or seen as bad. I’ll be truthful, I thought bad of mecha for a long time because of an incident that had happen when my older brother was in college. Some words were exchange because of a disagreement on protesting and a fight almost broke out. From that I’ll admit I sterotyped other Mechistas. But I was wrong to do so because everyone in different places are very different and i have learned that by meeting the mechistas at fresno state. They aren’t as crazy and super militant as the individual that my brother almost fought.
The way i see things is that mecha is there to educated people of any ethnicity of the injustice that was done to the people of color (specifically indigenous/mexican/latinos).
You know Anonymous that this land you are living in was at one point Mexico. Mexicans lived here and when the U.S. robbed, or for you won, California and the other states they (the American Citizens at the time) killed, raped and rob the people who had every right to be there. You want to know something else, certain U.S. citizens (big corporation owners) even went into other countries and started a war, just so they could get they could get the profits they wanted and without caring what would happen to the people living in those countries. Hell even this country went to war with other countries just so they wouldn’t have to deal with certain elected political officials. Please if you get a chance read Kinzer’s book “overthrow” to educate youself about the actions of this country. Maybe only then you will understand why groups like mecha exist.
Also Anonymous you wrote this “This country goes to great lengths to assist people such as yourself …” This country goes to great lengths to assist people like walter and even myself because they (this country) fucked up. Maybe this country has a conscious and wants to try to shut those voices of guilt so in order to do so they help us poor color people out to get the education we deserve. Again please refer to kinzer’s book.
Please educate yourself. You don’t have to agree with me or anyone else but please allow youself an open mind so you can at least understand where people are coming from. So you can understand that even though this is wonderful country, it has flaws and it has made mistakes and has yet to take responsibility.
c/s
sencia • Nov 18, 2008 at 2:02 am
I can understand why someone (this anonymous person) might think mecha is something
bad or seen as bad. I’ll be truthful, I thought bad of mecha for a long time because of an incident that had happen when my older brother was in college. Some words were exchange because of a disagreement on protesting and a fight almost broke out. From that I’ll admit I sterotyped other Mechistas. But I was wrong to do so because everyone in different places are very different and i have learned that by meeting the mechistas at fresno state. They aren’t as crazy and super militant as the individual that my brother almost fought.
The way i see things is that mecha is there to educated people of any ethnicity of the injustice that was done to the people of color (specifically indigenous/mexican/latinos).
You know Anonymous that this land you are living in was at one point Mexico. Mexicans lived here and when the U.S. robbed, or for you won, California and the other states they (the American Citizens at the time) killed, raped and rob the people who had every right to be there. You want to know something else, certain U.S. citizens (big corporation owners) even went into other countries and started a war, just so they could get they could get the profits they wanted and without caring what would happen to the people living in those countries. Hell even this country went to war with other countries just so they wouldn’t have to deal with certain elected political officials. Please if you get a chance read Kinzer’s book “overthrow” to educate youself about the actions of this country. Maybe only then you will understand why groups like mecha exist.
Also Anonymous you wrote this “This country goes to great lengths to assist people such as yourself …” This country goes to great lengths to assist people like walter and even myself because they (this country) fucked up. Maybe this country has a conscious and wants to try to shut those voices of guilt so in order to do so they help us poor color people out to get the education we deserve. Again please refer to kinzer’s book.
Please educate yourself. You don’t have to agree with me or anyone else but please allow youself an open mind so you can at least understand where people are coming from. So you can understand that even though this is wonderful country, it has flaws and it has made mistakes and has yet to take responsibility.
c/s
Ernesto Saavedra • Nov 17, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Mr./Mrs/Ms./Anonymous,
I echo what Maria Sofia wrote and would add that it is very unfortunate that this type of ‘reverse racism’, ‘color blind’ ideology you hold is what continues to perpetuate the horrific and systemic oppression people of color face on a daily basis. Thinking/comments like yours do not address the underlying issues that cause such disparities between people of color and the white ‘majority’ (not in numbers but in power)…For the record, before you tell anyone to ‘do your homework’ you should do YOUR homework first.
You cannot talk about ‘racism’ without talking about it’s many forms and who benefits from it and who doesn’t and ultimately how wasteful it is to direct your discontent towards people of color reacting to a system that purposely puts them down and further pushes them to the margins of the political, social, and economic arena. You mentioned that this country goes to great lengths to assist ‘people’ like Walter…You failed to mention that ‘people’ like Walter went and still go to great lengths to fight for that ‘assistance’ which really is going to great lengths to fight for equality and justice for all. A privilege a select few enjoy in this country, like health care. From your comments it reads like you enjoy some of those privileges at some level yourself.
Five hundred and sixteen years and counting ‘my friend’. Think before you type, think before you further marginalize a group that has been fighting for five centuries. Instead of being so concerned with what others are doing, you should be concerned with what you are doing. Lastly, I would recommend staying on topic next time. Thanks in advance to all those who took time out of their day to read this. I appreciate it. Take care.
No JUSTICE No PEACE smiling enormously,
Ernesto Saavedra
Fresno State 2008 alum and PROUD MECHISTA/FREEDOM FIGHTER
Ernesto Saavedra • Nov 18, 2008 at 12:52 am
Mr./Mrs/Ms./Anonymous,
I echo what Maria Sofia wrote and would add that it is very unfortunate that this type of ‘reverse racism’, ‘color blind’ ideology you hold is what continues to perpetuate the horrific and systemic oppression people of color face on a daily basis. Thinking/comments like yours do not address the underlying issues that cause such disparities between people of color and the white ‘majority’ (not in numbers but in power)…For the record, before you tell anyone to ‘do your homework’ you should do YOUR homework first.
You cannot talk about ‘racism’ without talking about it’s many forms and who benefits from it and who doesn’t and ultimately how wasteful it is to direct your discontent towards people of color reacting to a system that purposely puts them down and further pushes them to the margins of the political, social, and economic arena. You mentioned that this country goes to great lengths to assist ‘people’ like Walter…You failed to mention that ‘people’ like Walter went and still go to great lengths to fight for that ‘assistance’ which really is going to great lengths to fight for equality and justice for all. A privilege a select few enjoy in this country, like health care. From your comments it reads like you enjoy some of those privileges at some level yourself.
Five hundred and sixteen years and counting ‘my friend’. Think before you type, think before you further marginalize a group that has been fighting for five centuries. Instead of being so concerned with what others are doing, you should be concerned with what you are doing. Lastly, I would recommend staying on topic next time. Thanks in advance to all those who took time out of their day to read this. I appreciate it. Take care.
No JUSTICE No PEACE smiling enormously,
Ernesto Saavedra
Fresno State 2008 alum and PROUD MECHISTA/FREEDOM FIGHTER
marÃa sofÃa corona gómez • Nov 17, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Basics, basics mr. anonymous. MEChA is a diverse organization of locally defined groups. Yes, there are over arching ideas and philosophies that bind the different members, but overall it is very diverse and has changed over time. go figure xicanos change over time just like other people! also, what you may interpret as separatist and racist maybe a reflection of your own anglo-centered vision that has never taken the time to understand the experience and perspectives of others who have undergone discrimination, political, and cultural alienation–beyond random searches on-line that do not question your already cemented narrow vision. you may be the type of person who is so privileged within the dominant cultural paradigm of the w.a.s.p nationalist U.S. history promoted through mass consumer television outlets, public school textbooks, and major U.S. institutions of economic and political power that you have not faced true marginalization. by the way feeling uncomfortable among certain people or hearing ideas that question your ideas and feeling angry about this does not count, especially if you believe your values are the only ones that matter and everyone else is a threat to you. in fact, this phenomenon is most likely the simple result of the overall w.a.s.p. power you have enjoyed most of your life. best wishes in hopefully taking the time to truly learn from others, and above all from the ‘latinos’ you believe just came to YOUR backyard yesterday.
Lastly, my apologize for not having the time to follow your response. Believe me it is not personal, i just have so much other important work to attend.
paz,
marÃa sofÃa corona gómez
fresno state 2005 alum and proud mechista
marÃa sofÃa corona gómez • Nov 17, 2008 at 11:31 pm
Basics, basics mr. anonymous. MEChA is a diverse organization of locally defined groups. Yes, there are over arching ideas and philosophies that bind the different members, but overall it is very diverse and has changed over time. go figure xicanos change over time just like other people! also, what you may interpret as separatist and racist maybe a reflection of your own anglo-centered vision that has never taken the time to understand the experience and perspectives of others who have undergone discrimination, political, and cultural alienation–beyond random searches on-line that do not question your already cemented narrow vision. you may be the type of person who is so privileged within the dominant cultural paradigm of the w.a.s.p nationalist U.S. history promoted through mass consumer television outlets, public school textbooks, and major U.S. institutions of economic and political power that you have not faced true marginalization. by the way feeling uncomfortable among certain people or hearing ideas that question your ideas and feeling angry about this does not count, especially if you believe your values are the only ones that matter and everyone else is a threat to you. in fact, this phenomenon is most likely the simple result of the overall w.a.s.p. power you have enjoyed most of your life. best wishes in hopefully taking the time to truly learn from others, and above all from the ‘latinos’ you believe just came to YOUR backyard yesterday.
Lastly, my apologize for not having the time to follow your response. Believe me it is not personal, i just have so much other important work to attend.
paz,
marÃa sofÃa corona gómez
fresno state 2005 alum and proud mechista
Hector Cerda • Nov 17, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Obviously the hate speech on here towards M.E.Ch.A by an ANONYMOUS person is from someone who has the time on thier hands to know Walters ambitions, and his actions towards making the campus transparent to its students.
We shouldnt worry, making such arguments by an anonymous INFORMING COURTNEY AND WALTER (ALUM 2007) goes to show we are making progress and bloggers such as this are upset at the way we go about things, which is our student right.
Peace
Hector Cerda • Nov 17, 2008 at 10:08 pm
Obviously the hate speech on here towards M.E.Ch.A by an ANONYMOUS person is from someone who has the time on thier hands to know Walters ambitions, and his actions towards making the campus transparent to its students.
We shouldnt worry, making such arguments by an anonymous INFORMING COURTNEY AND WALTER (ALUM 2007) goes to show we are making progress and bloggers such as this are upset at the way we go about things, which is our student right.
Peace
informing courtney and walter (alum 2007) • Nov 17, 2008 at 12:24 am
My friend,
If you are truly proud that you’re a MECHA member—-explain what
Aztlan’ is? Explain ‘Amerikkka’? How about some of the other cult-like traditions. If you’re the same individual who ran for A.S. President you should be ashamed of your affiliation with that group. This country goes to great lengths to assist people such as yourself and then you try to balance legitimate student activities with that racist and culturally unproductive nonsense?
Then maybe you’re qualified to be mayor of Los Angeles just like the current embarassment holding the seat.
informing courtney and walter • Nov 17, 2008 at 7:24 am
My friend,
If you are truly proud that you’re a MECHA member—-explain what
Aztlan’ is? Explain ‘Amerikkka’? How about some of the other cult-like traditions. If you’re the same individual who ran for A.S. President you should be ashamed of your affiliation with that group. This country goes to great lengths to assist people such as yourself and then you try to balance legitimate student activities with that racist and culturally unproductive nonsense?
Then maybe you’re qualified to be mayor of Los Angeles just like the current embarassment holding the seat.
informing courtney and walter (alum 2007) • Nov 17, 2008 at 12:04 am
Walter/Courtney,
Do your homework about MeChA before you come on this message board and claim MeChA has done great things for our campus. I understand that the national organization is not exactly the same as individual campus organizations—-blah, blah…..I’ve researched the club, cult, org., and national doctrine (or should I say statements of indoctrination). They preach hate and shouldn’t be funded with our student activity dollars. I’m angry that my money and taxpayer money goes to clubs such as MeChA. They shouldn’t even be allowed to rent classroom space for their meetings. Would Neo-Nazis or Triad mobsters be permitted to run their operations on our grounds? Why is this Latino seperatist organization an exception? Oh, my mistake, Latino students are mainly first generation and need some inspiration.
Just because you might list the promotion of family and education among overall objectives, this doesn’t mean there isn’t an element of racism in the policy and statements of this disgraceful organization.
Collegian readers,
Do a simple google search on MECHA and you’ll begin to see the pattern. MeChA advances hate, the toppling of the U.S. government, and a realignment of society to enslave and eliminate the non-indigenous population of the American southwest. It’s practically cult status. Don’t let the OctubreFiesta celebrations deceive you.
informing courtney and walter • Nov 17, 2008 at 7:04 am
Walter/Courtney,
Do your homework about MeChA before you come on this message board and claim MeChA has done great things for our campus. I understand that the national organization is not exactly the same as individual campus organizations—-blah, blah…..I’ve researched the club, cult, org., and national doctrine (or should I say statements of indoctrination). They preach hate and shouldn’t be funded with our student activity dollars. I’m angry that my money and taxpayer money goes to clubs such as MeChA. They shouldn’t even be allowed to rent classroom space for their meetings. Would Neo-Nazis or Triad mobsters be permitted to run their operations on our grounds? Why is this Latino seperatist organization an exception? Oh, my mistake, Latino students are mainly first generation and need some inspiration.
Just because you might list the promotion of family and education among overall objectives, this doesn’t mean there isn’t an element of racism in the policy and statements of this disgraceful organization.
Collegian readers,
Do a simple google search on MECHA and you’ll begin to see the pattern. MeChA advances hate, the toppling of the U.S. government, and a realignment of society to enslave and eliminate the non-indigenous population of the American southwest. It’s practically cult status. Don’t let the OctubreFiesta celebrations deceive you.
Courtney Miller • Nov 16, 2008 at 3:23 pm
How did MECHA get into this? Nobama, I think you must be confused with some other group. MECHA has done some great and important things for our campus.
Mr. Holm, what is unnatural is the extreme overpopulation that we are starting to see all over the place. That is really what is going to be the demise of our civilization. Prop 8 says nothing about adoption. I have a friend who, along with his husband, takes special needs children from foster care and takes care of them, providing the extra support that they need from a family. I did have a father, and he was a jerk. I have many more issues from that than if I had two mommies. Also, I have a few friends that have grown up with parents of the same sex. They all turned out fine. One (woman) just got married to a man.
This argument that children are going to be subjected to ridicule at school is based in your ideas that persecution and ridicule is alright. Instead of changing the law to exclude one group from the rights of every other group, why don’t we work to change the behaviors of children and ourselves that lead to this sort of hateful envioronment. I’m not going to teach my children or my little sister that she should be a homosexual, but I am certainly going to teach them that we must come into contact with many many different people, and to be a good person, and a good christian, you must always treat others with love and try to have enough respect for them as people to not classify them by their sins no matter what we believe their sins to be. We have no right to do this, and frankly, I don’t want to have the right or the responsibility to do this.
Courtney Miller • Nov 16, 2008 at 10:23 pm
How did MECHA get into this? Nobama, I think you must be confused with some other group. MECHA has done some great and important things for our campus.
Mr. Holm, what is unnatural is the extreme overpopulation that we are starting to see all over the place. That is really what is going to be the demise of our civilization. Prop 8 says nothing about adoption. I have a friend who, along with his husband, takes special needs children from foster care and takes care of them, providing the extra support that they need from a family. I did have a father, and he was a jerk. I have many more issues from that than if I had two mommies. Also, I have a few friends that have grown up with parents of the same sex. They all turned out fine. One (woman) just got married to a man.
This argument that children are going to be subjected to ridicule at school is based in your ideas that persecution and ridicule is alright. Instead of changing the law to exclude one group from the rights of every other group, why don’t we work to change the behaviors of children and ourselves that lead to this sort of hateful envioronment. I’m not going to teach my children or my little sister that she should be a homosexual, but I am certainly going to teach them that we must come into contact with many many different people, and to be a good person, and a good christian, you must always treat others with love and try to have enough respect for them as people to not classify them by their sins no matter what we believe their sins to be. We have no right to do this, and frankly, I don’t want to have the right or the responsibility to do this.
Walter Ramirez • Nov 13, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Nobama,
We Promote cultural and political awareness, as education among youth. oviusly, you have never been to any of our events.
Walter Ramirez • Nov 14, 2008 at 1:10 am
Nobama,
We Promote cultural and political awareness, as education among youth. oviusly, you have never been to any of our events.
Walter Ramirez • Nov 13, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Nobama,
What do you mean hate group in MECHA? and your fees and tuition going to MECHA. I am a Mechista in this Campus, I let me tell you my friend we do not promote hate at all. it is very evident that you do not have any clue what we are about. I invite you to one of our meeting so you can get out of your ignorance.
Walter Ramirez • Nov 14, 2008 at 1:06 am
Nobama,
What do you mean hate group in MECHA? and your fees and tuition going to MECHA. I am a Mechista in this Campus, I let me tell you my friend we do not promote hate at all. it is very evident that you do not have any clue what we are about. I invite you to one of our meeting so you can get out of your ignorance.
Andrew Holm • Nov 13, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Typo on the previous comment: In the first sentence, *now* should be changed to *not*
Andrew Holm • Nov 14, 2008 at 12:54 am
Typo on the previous comment: In the first sentence, *now* should be changed to *not*
Andrew Holm • Nov 13, 2008 at 5:52 pm
jacko,
Religion is inextricably connected to the way I think, and I like it that way, but there are a few arguments against homosexuality that are now connected to religion. Simple reproductive anatomy shows that homosexuality is not natural. Homosexuality is also anti-civilization, because they have no natural way to procreate. Now I know there are heterosexual couples who are not able to have children, but that is vastly different than homosexual couples. An entire group of couples having no natural way to procreate and reproduce is different than a single couple who is unable to have children or older couples who could have children at one point and now are not able to.
Don’t you think it messes with a kid’s head when they go to school and most of their friends have a mommy and daddy, but they have daddy number one and daddy number two? Daddy number one is soft and feminine and daddy number two is rough and manly. Now if this kid were a boy, they would not know which daddy to follow, and the chances are they would come out being really, really messed up later in life.
Andrew Holm • Nov 14, 2008 at 12:52 am
jacko,
Religion is inextricably connected to the way I think, and I like it that way, but there are a few arguments against homosexuality that are now connected to religion. Simple reproductive anatomy shows that homosexuality is not natural. Homosexuality is also anti-civilization, because they have no natural way to procreate. Now I know there are heterosexual couples who are not able to have children, but that is vastly different than homosexual couples. An entire group of couples having no natural way to procreate and reproduce is different than a single couple who is unable to have children or older couples who could have children at one point and now are not able to.
Don’t you think it messes with a kid’s head when they go to school and most of their friends have a mommy and daddy, but they have daddy number one and daddy number two? Daddy number one is soft and feminine and daddy number two is rough and manly. Now if this kid were a boy, they would not know which daddy to follow, and the chances are they would come out being really, really messed up later in life.
Nobama Hussein • Nov 13, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Karen,
I’m more pissed that my student activity fees and tuition go to partially fund an ACTUAL hate group in MeChA. Some guy ranting and raving at his own expense is not really a significant concern.
Nobama Hussein • Nov 13, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Karen,
I’m more pissed that my student activity fees and tuition go to partially fund an ACTUAL hate group in MeChA. Some guy ranting and raving at his own expense is not really a significant concern.
jacko • Nov 13, 2008 at 9:26 am
Can some one come up with a valid argument against homosexuality without involving religion? probably not.
jacko • Nov 13, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Can some one come up with a valid argument against homosexuality without involving religion? probably not.
Andrew Holm • Nov 13, 2008 at 1:59 am
Homosexuality does not only affect those involved–in everything that we do, there are consequences beyond ourselves…you don’t think that a homosexual will have an influence on his family, little brother, neighbor, etc? So if, in fact, homosexuality in a sin (and it is), then by parading his lifestyle, the homosexual has hurt someone else through his influence.
You also said that you’re sure that I’ve had little to no dealings with homosexuals, but my cousin is a lesbian. I had a friend that turned lesbian. If you have no justification for your critiques of my life, it is probably not a good idea to blindly assert them.
Didn’t Jesus say that we would be hated by men for His name’s sake? Are you upset at Him for driving out the moneychangers in the temple with a whip because He gave a negative stereotype of Christianity?? Was he a little too harsh and intolerant by your standards? Was His actions not loving enough to the poor Pharisees? All they were doing was being a little hypocritical…why would He call them vipers, snakes, and other harsh words like that? Why not just love them for who they were? Obviously I’m being facetious. Since we know that Jesus did in fact love them, the logical conclusion was that he did love them while he did all those “harsh, mean” things.
Have you considered the fact that Pastor Anthony is not simply angry but righteously indignant? There is definitely a difference. You also might look up the type preaching done in the Bible–most of it was open air preaching, which just happens to be the kind of preaching Pastor Anthony does on campus. Man, with all the abuse that Pastor Anthony receives on campus, the only possible reason that he comes back on campus to preach is that he loves the students. If he didn’t love you he would have “shook the dust off his feet against you” a long time ago because of your hardheartedness.
On another note, It is completely ignorant for you to disagree on my calling Jesus my Savior. If I call Jeffrey (my dad) my father, have I “taken possession of him” Did I have anything to do with him being my father?? Of course not. By the same token, when I made reference to Jesus as my Savior, there is neither any connotation nor denotation that I am the “controller” of my salvation. I had to accept Jesus’ free gift, but how can you say that by calling Jesus my Savior, I am calling myself the controller of my salvation?? That seems rather ignorant to me.
Anyway, on our preaching in the free speech area, if we watered down the gospel, used euphemisms for sin, and preached all love without preaching true repentance, I’m sure we’d have had many more “converts” than now. But watered down gospel does not produce true Christians. I will not back down for anyone. Your criticisms have been noted, but Pastor Anthony and myself agree with Peter when he said “We ought to obey God rather than men.”
Andrew Holm • Nov 13, 2008 at 8:59 am
Homosexuality does not only affect those involved–in everything that we do, there are consequences beyond ourselves…you don’t think that a homosexual will have an influence on his family, little brother, neighbor, etc? So if, in fact, homosexuality in a sin (and it is), then by parading his lifestyle, the homosexual has hurt someone else through his influence.
You also said that you’re sure that I’ve had little to no dealings with homosexuals, but my cousin is a lesbian. I had a friend that turned lesbian. If you have no justification for your critiques of my life, it is probably not a good idea to blindly assert them.
Didn’t Jesus say that we would be hated by men for His name’s sake? Are you upset at Him for driving out the moneychangers in the temple with a whip because He gave a negative stereotype of Christianity?? Was he a little too harsh and intolerant by your standards? Was His actions not loving enough to the poor Pharisees? All they were doing was being a little hypocritical…why would He call them vipers, snakes, and other harsh words like that? Why not just love them for who they were? Obviously I’m being facetious. Since we know that Jesus did in fact love them, the logical conclusion was that he did love them while he did all those “harsh, mean” things.
Have you considered the fact that Pastor Anthony is not simply angry but righteously indignant? There is definitely a difference. You also might look up the type preaching done in the Bible–most of it was open air preaching, which just happens to be the kind of preaching Pastor Anthony does on campus. Man, with all the abuse that Pastor Anthony receives on campus, the only possible reason that he comes back on campus to preach is that he loves the students. If he didn’t love you he would have “shook the dust off his feet against you” a long time ago because of your hardheartedness.
On another note, It is completely ignorant for you to disagree on my calling Jesus my Savior. If I call Jeffrey (my dad) my father, have I “taken possession of him” Did I have anything to do with him being my father?? Of course not. By the same token, when I made reference to Jesus as my Savior, there is neither any connotation nor denotation that I am the “controller” of my salvation. I had to accept Jesus’ free gift, but how can you say that by calling Jesus my Savior, I am calling myself the controller of my salvation?? That seems rather ignorant to me.
Anyway, on our preaching in the free speech area, if we watered down the gospel, used euphemisms for sin, and preached all love without preaching true repentance, I’m sure we’d have had many more “converts” than now. But watered down gospel does not produce true Christians. I will not back down for anyone. Your criticisms have been noted, but Pastor Anthony and myself agree with Peter when he said “We ought to obey God rather than men.”
Courtney Miller • Nov 13, 2008 at 12:43 am
Mr. Holm,
I made a mistake in trying to address your beliefs. I really do not care what you believe, as really, this is none of my business. What really concerns me is that you ignored what I feel is a much more important concern: the power of one religion over our country.
I realize, you will go with your rapist theory at this point, but a rapist harms others. Even by your standards of sin, the homosexual only hurts him/herself. These two groups, Mr. Holm, are not comparable because of this and becomes an issue of beliefs instead of fact.
I am an adamant protester of your preaching style in the free speech area because you are presenting the most negative stereotype of Christians possible, and I feel that this not only makes us all look bad, but also creates are larger gap between people and Christ. Please do not claim Jesus Christ as your own. You cannot posess Him as if you are the controller of salvation.
Courtney Miller • Nov 13, 2008 at 7:43 am
Mr. Holm,
I made a mistake in trying to address your beliefs. I really do not care what you believe, as really, this is none of my business. What really concerns me is that you ignored what I feel is a much more important concern: the power of one religion over our country.
I realize, you will go with your rapist theory at this point, but a rapist harms others. Even by your standards of sin, the homosexual only hurts him/herself. These two groups, Mr. Holm, are not comparable because of this and becomes an issue of beliefs instead of fact.
I am an adamant protester of your preaching style in the free speech area because you are presenting the most negative stereotype of Christians possible, and I feel that this not only makes us all look bad, but also creates are larger gap between people and Christ. Please do not claim Jesus Christ as your own. You cannot posess Him as if you are the controller of salvation.
Andrew Holm • Nov 12, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Courtney,
After reading your post, I must conclude that you have a severe misunderstanding of the Bible. If you are, in fact, a Christian, then you should not ignore any of the Bible, no matter what it says. The new covenant did not do away with the old one–it fulfilled it. Jesus said so himself that he was not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. Therefore, anytime one reads verses from the Old Testament, it must be read through the lens of the New Testament. I would suggest reading Hebrews; it contrasts the Old and New covenants very well. Many of the things in the Old Testaments were types and shadows of the new covenant under Jesus Christ.
This new covenant that we are now living in is indeed a covenant of grace and mercy, and I rely on it a lot in my Christian walk. However, Romans 6:1,2 says “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God Forbid! How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?” The fact that a Christian has the Blood of Jesus to cover him does not mean that he can live in sin. If you live in habitual sin, you are not a Christian (Read James, I John).
I’m surprised that the debate on this campus has degenerated into mere argumentum ad hominem (debasing one’s characteristics rather than intelligently arguing against his viewpoints). Do you actually support Julie’s posts even though they have little to no argumentative validity?
You called my comment overwhelmingly hateful and cruel, but if I had said the same thing regarding a rapist (That his lifestyle was gross, disgusting, wrong, that a just recompense for being a rapist was to spend an eternity in hell, and that he needed to repent and turn from his sin) would I have been labeled hateful and cruel? This is no different than that in the fact that I labeled an action what it was (a sin) and told the two Biblical ways for justification-repentance or punishment.
Our goal, Courtney, is that people will become Christians so that they can go to heaven. One is not going to change his sinful lifestyle unless he first comes to the conclusion that he is wrong. Don’t think that no one has listened, because there are people who are Christians now because of the preaching Pastor Anthony has done in the free speech area. People always have a problem with the method of preaching the gospel that we employ. If there were a person walking on the middle of a train trestle with the imminent danger of a train about to come, I doubt that you would advocate a passive approach. Pastor Anthony is only trying to warn students of the imminent danger of judgment that is coming if they continue to live in sin, and, since the danger is so close, he is passionate about it.
Everywhere I look, I find that so called “Christians” are some of the most adamant protesters of our preaching in the free speech area. Those of you who renounce us and claim to know my Savior, Jesus Christ, had better take a good look at your relationship with Him, because Pastor Anthony preaches the Bible. Your problem with him is most likely a problem with the teachings of the Bible.
Andrew Holm • Nov 13, 2008 at 12:49 am
Courtney,
After reading your post, I must conclude that you have a severe misunderstanding of the Bible. If you are, in fact, a Christian, then you should not ignore any of the Bible, no matter what it says. The new covenant did not do away with the old one–it fulfilled it. Jesus said so himself that he was not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. Therefore, anytime one reads verses from the Old Testament, it must be read through the lens of the New Testament. I would suggest reading Hebrews; it contrasts the Old and New covenants very well. Many of the things in the Old Testaments were types and shadows of the new covenant under Jesus Christ.
This new covenant that we are now living in is indeed a covenant of grace and mercy, and I rely on it a lot in my Christian walk. However, Romans 6:1,2 says “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God Forbid! How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?” The fact that a Christian has the Blood of Jesus to cover him does not mean that he can live in sin. If you live in habitual sin, you are not a Christian (Read James, I John).
I’m surprised that the debate on this campus has degenerated into mere argumentum ad hominem (debasing one’s characteristics rather than intelligently arguing against his viewpoints). Do you actually support Julie’s posts even though they have little to no argumentative validity?
You called my comment overwhelmingly hateful and cruel, but if I had said the same thing regarding a rapist (That his lifestyle was gross, disgusting, wrong, that a just recompense for being a rapist was to spend an eternity in hell, and that he needed to repent and turn from his sin) would I have been labeled hateful and cruel? This is no different than that in the fact that I labeled an action what it was (a sin) and told the two Biblical ways for justification-repentance or punishment.
Our goal, Courtney, is that people will become Christians so that they can go to heaven. One is not going to change his sinful lifestyle unless he first comes to the conclusion that he is wrong. Don’t think that no one has listened, because there are people who are Christians now because of the preaching Pastor Anthony has done in the free speech area. People always have a problem with the method of preaching the gospel that we employ. If there were a person walking on the middle of a train trestle with the imminent danger of a train about to come, I doubt that you would advocate a passive approach. Pastor Anthony is only trying to warn students of the imminent danger of judgment that is coming if they continue to live in sin, and, since the danger is so close, he is passionate about it.
Everywhere I look, I find that so called “Christians” are some of the most adamant protesters of our preaching in the free speech area. Those of you who renounce us and claim to know my Savior, Jesus Christ, had better take a good look at your relationship with Him, because Pastor Anthony preaches the Bible. Your problem with him is most likely a problem with the teachings of the Bible.
dw • Nov 12, 2008 at 6:47 am
Courtney, I agree with you 100 percent.
Postings from people like Andrew are pushing me further along the road of supporting preventive detention of his particular flavor of “Christian” or “Christianist.” Not for ther religious beliefs, but for their seditious political activity.
dw • Nov 12, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Courtney, I agree with you 100 percent.
Postings from people like Andrew are pushing me further along the road of supporting preventive detention of his particular flavor of “Christian” or “Christianist.” Not for ther religious beliefs, but for their seditious political activity.
Courtney Miller • Nov 11, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Andrew Holm: There are several studies that are finding genetic evidence that supports homosexuality is a trait you are born with. Regardless of that, though, we live in a country that allows choice and should not be dictated to by one religion. Are you claiming that everyone in the United States must be Christian and follow all the laws of the Bible? If so, get me out of here. I’m Christian, and I ignore certain verses especially in Leviticus where we are told in 15 not to touch a woman or anything she touches when she is menstrating. Then, for each cycle, the woman must make sacrifices for the impurity to be removed from her. Do you know anyone who does this? Also, if you touch her or anything she has sat on, you are unclean. Remember, though, these verses are instructions to Moses as the old covenant with God. In our new coventant with God, we are told that Jesus takes sin from us and that “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. You disgrace him with your hatred.
What I really want to know, Mr. Holm, is what you want. You stand with your signs that alienate people and make them hate you back. You say you want to spread God’s word, and I assume you wish to do this in an attempt to help people come to know Him and His salvation, but who will come to you when you preach in this way. There is a reason Jesus taught acceptance and love instead of damnation and fear. Treating people well, respecting them, and comming to them with love is the only way that you can ever help a person see your side. Who will come to your church now? I imagine you are not trying to recruit those who already believe.
Ultimately, though, definitions of sin and religious beliefs do not belong in politics. In order to preserve the integrity of both groups, religion and government must be seperated. Since we live in a country that belives people must be treated equally under the law, religion cannot decide if someone is right or wrong.
You say this Julie person is hateful and unintelligent, but reading your posts, your hatred is overwhelming, cruel, and aimed at a group of people that I’m sure you have had little to no actual contact with.
Courtney Miller • Nov 11, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Andrew Holm: There are several studies that are finding genetic evidence that supports homosexuality is a trait you are born with. Regardless of that, though, we live in a country that allows choice and should not be dictated to by one religion. Are you claiming that everyone in the United States must be Christian and follow all the laws of the Bible? If so, get me out of here. I’m Christian, and I ignore certain verses especially in Leviticus where we are told in 15 not to touch a woman or anything she touches when she is menstrating. Then, for each cycle, the woman must make sacrifices for the impurity to be removed from her. Do you know anyone who does this? Also, if you touch her or anything she has sat on, you are unclean. Remember, though, these verses are instructions to Moses as the old covenant with God. In our new coventant with God, we are told that Jesus takes sin from us and that “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. You disgrace him with your hatred.
What I really want to know, Mr. Holm, is what you want. You stand with your signs that alienate people and make them hate you back. You say you want to spread God’s word, and I assume you wish to do this in an attempt to help people come to know Him and His salvation, but who will come to you when you preach in this way. There is a reason Jesus taught acceptance and love instead of damnation and fear. Treating people well, respecting them, and comming to them with love is the only way that you can ever help a person see your side. Who will come to your church now? I imagine you are not trying to recruit those who already believe.
Ultimately, though, definitions of sin and religious beliefs do not belong in politics. In order to preserve the integrity of both groups, religion and government must be seperated. Since we live in a country that belives people must be treated equally under the law, religion cannot decide if someone is right or wrong.
You say this Julie person is hateful and unintelligent, but reading your posts, your hatred is overwhelming, cruel, and aimed at a group of people that I’m sure you have had little to no actual contact with.
Andrew Holm • Nov 9, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Oh my goodness, could someone please show me the specific HOMOSEXUAL DNA molecule?? If it’s passed genetically, I would love to see it, but I can say that safely because there isn’t a “gay gene”; HOMOSEXUALITY IS A CHOICE. A rather disgusting choice, but I won’t go into that. Pastor Munoz does not only preach against homosexuality, but also against fornication, adultery, filthy conversation…etc. For those who say that homosexuality is not a sin, have you read Romans 1, I Corinthians 6, Leviticus 18?? Not in the watered down Bible translations of today…go read the King James Version or the original Greek and Hebrew that the Bible was written in. You will find that homosexuality is a wicked sin that is punished by God. It doesn’t get much plainer than that. Enough with the blasphemy against the Bible…don’t try to use God’s holy Word to justify the filthiness of homosexuality. Now I do not advocate the view that God hates sinners–neither does Pastor Anthony. Pastor Anthony has never said that God hates sinners, but in order for God to be just, those that live in sin and reject God by their actions must be punished by spending an eternity in hell. I don’t hate homosexuals; I find their sinful lifestyle rather gross, but they need to repent and be cleansed from their sins just like the fornicator, liar, cheater, or idolater.
(Julie, if you have nothing intelligent to say, please stop leaving hateful comments on all the posts….you did the same thing on the video comments of the free speech evangelists…and you call us the hateful, intolerant ones…….)
Andrew Holm • Nov 10, 2008 at 12:52 am
Oh my goodness, could someone please show me the specific HOMOSEXUAL DNA molecule?? If it’s passed genetically, I would love to see it, but I can say that safely because there isn’t a “gay gene”; HOMOSEXUALITY IS A CHOICE. A rather disgusting choice, but I won’t go into that. Pastor Munoz does not only preach against homosexuality, but also against fornication, adultery, filthy conversation…etc. For those who say that homosexuality is not a sin, have you read Romans 1, I Corinthians 6, Leviticus 18?? Not in the watered down Bible translations of today…go read the King James Version or the original Greek and Hebrew that the Bible was written in. You will find that homosexuality is a wicked sin that is punished by God. It doesn’t get much plainer than that. Enough with the blasphemy against the Bible…don’t try to use God’s holy Word to justify the filthiness of homosexuality. Now I do not advocate the view that God hates sinners–neither does Pastor Anthony. Pastor Anthony has never said that God hates sinners, but in order for God to be just, those that live in sin and reject God by their actions must be punished by spending an eternity in hell. I don’t hate homosexuals; I find their sinful lifestyle rather gross, but they need to repent and be cleansed from their sins just like the fornicator, liar, cheater, or idolater.
(Julie, if you have nothing intelligent to say, please stop leaving hateful comments on all the posts….you did the same thing on the video comments of the free speech evangelists…and you call us the hateful, intolerant ones…….)
Courtney Miller • Sep 24, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Carole and others who have caught my oversight,
I’m sorry that I didn’t make it clear that I also believe this. I was merely addressing some of the messages that I have found in the Bible. As long-winded as I have been on this topic. I have obviously missed a very important point in all of this that I completely agree with you on, and I both appologize for not making this clear and thank you for discussing it.
Courtney Miller • Sep 25, 2008 at 1:56 am
Carole and others who have caught my oversight,
I’m sorry that I didn’t make it clear that I also believe this. I was merely addressing some of the messages that I have found in the Bible. As long-winded as I have been on this topic. I have obviously missed a very important point in all of this that I completely agree with you on, and I both appologize for not making this clear and thank you for discussing it.
Carol Claassen • Sep 24, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Nowhere in the bible does God say that homosexuality is a sin. It is a sin for a man to RAPE another man. And it is a sin for a man to lust after another man. But lust is not love. Let’s talk about sin. Sin is a choice. Murder is a choice. Theft, rape, adultery–these are choices. Homosexuality? Not a choice. I know that many evangelical people who were fortunate enough to have God carry them into this life in a heterosexual body have difficulty believing that God might also create people who love the same sex, but it’s true. And I don’t think we can know why God chooses to make some people gay, though we might speculate that He/She has decided to create homosexuals to teach people that His/Her love comes in many forms. Perhaps I am a lesbian because God wants me to show people that my love is just as real and honorable and consensual as heterosexual love. For those of you who believe homosexuality is a choice, I implore you to look around at your gay brothers and sisters who are daily oppressed and ostracized; now, consider why they/we would CHOOSE this life of criticism. It’s not logical, folks. So please stop telling me that I am sinning just by being a child of God, just by loving. I am not without sins, but my sins have nothing to do with my God-given sexuality. The bible’s most profound and proloterate message is about love. So let’s all focus on loving each other; I guarantee that if we follow the doctrine of love and remember that we are all one, the real sins will disappear–and of course, homosexuals will still be here, just the way God made us.
Carol Claassen • Sep 25, 2008 at 1:30 am
Nowhere in the bible does God say that homosexuality is a sin. It is a sin for a man to RAPE another man. And it is a sin for a man to lust after another man. But lust is not love. Let’s talk about sin. Sin is a choice. Murder is a choice. Theft, rape, adultery–these are choices. Homosexuality? Not a choice. I know that many evangelical people who were fortunate enough to have God carry them into this life in a heterosexual body have difficulty believing that God might also create people who love the same sex, but it’s true. And I don’t think we can know why God chooses to make some people gay, though we might speculate that He/She has decided to create homosexuals to teach people that His/Her love comes in many forms. Perhaps I am a lesbian because God wants me to show people that my love is just as real and honorable and consensual as heterosexual love. For those of you who believe homosexuality is a choice, I implore you to look around at your gay brothers and sisters who are daily oppressed and ostracized; now, consider why they/we would CHOOSE this life of criticism. It’s not logical, folks. So please stop telling me that I am sinning just by being a child of God, just by loving. I am not without sins, but my sins have nothing to do with my God-given sexuality. The bible’s most profound and proloterate message is about love. So let’s all focus on loving each other; I guarantee that if we follow the doctrine of love and remember that we are all one, the real sins will disappear–and of course, homosexuals will still be here, just the way God made us.
Julie Quick • Sep 24, 2008 at 5:46 pm
This loser is going straight to hell, not the students which he yells and screams at. He belongs to the same cult as that crazy lady and her cult of family members who are always making themselves look like idiots on national tv. Somebody needs to bring a lot of produce and throw them at this moron. Some tomatos to the head or lettuce to his four eyes is in order. This loser doesn’t deserve to waste students time who pay to come to the university. Security!!!!!!!!
Julie Quick • Sep 25, 2008 at 12:46 am
This loser is going straight to hell, not the students which he yells and screams at. He belongs to the same cult as that crazy lady and her cult of family members who are always making themselves look like idiots on national tv. Somebody needs to bring a lot of produce and throw them at this moron. Some tomatos to the head or lettuce to his four eyes is in order. This loser doesn’t deserve to waste students time who pay to come to the university. Security!!!!!!!!
Courtney Miller • Sep 23, 2008 at 11:41 pm
In response to Diane, I would like to say that I understand your position on sin and how you choose to live your life. It is important to maintain ones definitions on what is sin, but after knowing you for several years, you have never shoved your beliefs down my throat. In fact, I think that the only times you have ever mentioned your beliefs are times that they have been specifically brought up as in this situation. I also have attempted to not shove my beliefs down your throat. I think you have, however, made your stance clear on these issues while being respecful and a providing a good example of one who does not quake in her beliefs but also follows these beliefs.
In terms of God’s hatred, these examples are from the old testament where we are told the ideal ways to behave in order to protect ourselves from eternal damnation. The point is that sin is detrimental to the person who is sinning because it pulls the person from a relationship with God. This is why God hates the sin not the sinner. This is consistantly stated. These people are attacking the sinners not the sin and going against what I believe are the intentions of these scriptures. I could go on to discuss the acceptance model Jesus provides in the New Testament, but I feel uncomfortable preaching on this subject any more.
When suggesting that we are hypocritical in our intollerance of behaviors such as sexual offence and murder but not homoesexuality, these values are backed up by human laws that were agreed upon as the parameters of behavior as citizens of the United States. We accept in our citizenship that there are consequences in this world. We as a society have decided this, and we have a right to uphold the consequences and judgements of these behavoirs as unnaceptable. I do not think that we can hold homosexuality to the same standard, as the basis of this as a wrong action is in a belief that this country has not yet decided everyone must follow. As a citizen of the USA, I am not defined as Christian or other religions that believe homosexuality is a sin thus I am not confined to the laws of these beliefs.
I am, of course, not suggesting that anyone should follow this or any other religion in any certain way. I am suggesting that people share this religion with others or avoid sharing this religion with others in certain ways. Yes, I hold the free speech area and the ability to express ourselves there as one of our most important rights. Unfortunately, when this conflicts with what I feel is a more important right, the freedom to work and study in a hate-free envioronment, I have to say that there is a limit to free speech. These people are taking advantage of this difficult situation of values in the rules of the campus.
My response to “concerned-student” is that you are assuming that the people involved in this conversation have not used the free speech area. I have used the area in the past in order to bring up important issues such as treatment of TA and to present literary events and fundraisers. I do not think that I should have to babysit the area nor do I think I should have to walk around. Yes, I do not like it, but I have to walk past this area four times a day, and it is simply impossible to make it to class and work on time walking around the area. I’m not sure if I understand or agree with your statement that these conversations here are hidden. This is another place that we pay for to discuss our feelings on issues. I am also a student at Fresno State, and the paper is one of the few resources available for me to voice my opinion. I do suggest that I am being in fact very public, not hidden.
Courtney Miller • Sep 24, 2008 at 6:41 am
In response to Diane, I would like to say that I understand your position on sin and how you choose to live your life. It is important to maintain ones definitions on what is sin, but after knowing you for several years, you have never shoved your beliefs down my throat. In fact, I think that the only times you have ever mentioned your beliefs are times that they have been specifically brought up as in this situation. I also have attempted to not shove my beliefs down your throat. I think you have, however, made your stance clear on these issues while being respecful and a providing a good example of one who does not quake in her beliefs but also follows these beliefs.
In terms of God’s hatred, these examples are from the old testament where we are told the ideal ways to behave in order to protect ourselves from eternal damnation. The point is that sin is detrimental to the person who is sinning because it pulls the person from a relationship with God. This is why God hates the sin not the sinner. This is consistantly stated. These people are attacking the sinners not the sin and going against what I believe are the intentions of these scriptures. I could go on to discuss the acceptance model Jesus provides in the New Testament, but I feel uncomfortable preaching on this subject any more.
When suggesting that we are hypocritical in our intollerance of behaviors such as sexual offence and murder but not homoesexuality, these values are backed up by human laws that were agreed upon as the parameters of behavior as citizens of the United States. We accept in our citizenship that there are consequences in this world. We as a society have decided this, and we have a right to uphold the consequences and judgements of these behavoirs as unnaceptable. I do not think that we can hold homosexuality to the same standard, as the basis of this as a wrong action is in a belief that this country has not yet decided everyone must follow. As a citizen of the USA, I am not defined as Christian or other religions that believe homosexuality is a sin thus I am not confined to the laws of these beliefs.
I am, of course, not suggesting that anyone should follow this or any other religion in any certain way. I am suggesting that people share this religion with others or avoid sharing this religion with others in certain ways. Yes, I hold the free speech area and the ability to express ourselves there as one of our most important rights. Unfortunately, when this conflicts with what I feel is a more important right, the freedom to work and study in a hate-free envioronment, I have to say that there is a limit to free speech. These people are taking advantage of this difficult situation of values in the rules of the campus.
My response to “concerned-student” is that you are assuming that the people involved in this conversation have not used the free speech area. I have used the area in the past in order to bring up important issues such as treatment of TA and to present literary events and fundraisers. I do not think that I should have to babysit the area nor do I think I should have to walk around. Yes, I do not like it, but I have to walk past this area four times a day, and it is simply impossible to make it to class and work on time walking around the area. I’m not sure if I understand or agree with your statement that these conversations here are hidden. This is another place that we pay for to discuss our feelings on issues. I am also a student at Fresno State, and the paper is one of the few resources available for me to voice my opinion. I do suggest that I am being in fact very public, not hidden.
Jamie • Sep 23, 2008 at 11:25 am
Well… after many comments responding to this article, if the nut wants to express himself well we can’t really stop him since it is the free speech area. Although what comes around goes around people could always give him a taste of his own medicine; and I have seen students vocalize their opinion to him, he just chooses not to hear it and that is his problem because he cannot see he is not appreciated or wanted on this campus.
Jamie • Sep 23, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Well… after many comments responding to this article, if the nut wants to express himself well we can’t really stop him since it is the free speech area. Although what comes around goes around people could always give him a taste of his own medicine; and I have seen students vocalize their opinion to him, he just chooses not to hear it and that is his problem because he cannot see he is not appreciated or wanted on this campus.
Concerned-student • Sep 23, 2008 at 10:22 am
My answer to who will be next are: the KKK speaking at the free speech area and we can stand around and say, hey, this is free speech thing is great, and we can ask ourselves that if we don’t allow the KKK who else won’t we allow.. This is not only an issue for Fresno State, but a public issue as well. We can’t prevent KKK rallies in public areas, that goes along with 1st amendment rights…and Fresno State is a public institution.. Although I’m bothered by homophobia, racism, and all the other ills of America.. I’m neutral with this issue
i don’t think we should kick anyone out of the free speech area.. this is why this area was created.. because if anyone didn’t enjoy the diversity of perspectives that come from the free speech area, then they can walk a route that doesn’t pass the free speech area, or else stand on the free speech area and speak their views, and not hiding behind comments and articles.
I think the real problem here is that we have a mainly apathetic campus of students who aren’t aware of many social issues.. there is just not any form of social Activism on campus that would really utilize the free speech area to it’s potential..so this one guy is probably the only guy really using the area..and he has the full right to.. as well as we as students and faculty..have the right to use this area to discuss and promote different social issues, but we mostly don’t..and just sit around and complain.. i’m to blame.. you’re to blame..we’re all to blame..
we should allow everyone to speak at the free speech area because if one person feels a certain way about certain people…i’m sure many other people feel the same way and i’m glad it’s voiced rather than hidden and silently pervasive.
Concerned-student • Sep 23, 2008 at 5:22 pm
My answer to who will be next are: the KKK speaking at the free speech area and we can stand around and say, hey, this is free speech thing is great, and we can ask ourselves that if we don’t allow the KKK who else won’t we allow.. This is not only an issue for Fresno State, but a public issue as well. We can’t prevent KKK rallies in public areas, that goes along with 1st amendment rights…and Fresno State is a public institution.. Although I’m bothered by homophobia, racism, and all the other ills of America.. I’m neutral with this issue
i don’t think we should kick anyone out of the free speech area.. this is why this area was created.. because if anyone didn’t enjoy the diversity of perspectives that come from the free speech area, then they can walk a route that doesn’t pass the free speech area, or else stand on the free speech area and speak their views, and not hiding behind comments and articles.
I think the real problem here is that we have a mainly apathetic campus of students who aren’t aware of many social issues.. there is just not any form of social Activism on campus that would really utilize the free speech area to it’s potential..so this one guy is probably the only guy really using the area..and he has the full right to.. as well as we as students and faculty..have the right to use this area to discuss and promote different social issues, but we mostly don’t..and just sit around and complain.. i’m to blame.. you’re to blame..we’re all to blame..
we should allow everyone to speak at the free speech area because if one person feels a certain way about certain people…i’m sure many other people feel the same way and i’m glad it’s voiced rather than hidden and silently pervasive.
Diane K. Miniel • Sep 23, 2008 at 7:23 am
My fellow MFA graduate student has chosen to take a public stance against our constitution’s freedom of speech because she is offended over a preacher who preaches “hate.â€Â She questions “. . . shouldn’t there be a limit when it comes to free speech?â€Â She points out that the religious man, whom I’ve not seen or heard lately—there is always someone who chooses a Jeremiah/John the Baptist “Repent for the Kingdom of the Heavens is nearâ€Â role on a campus—but I do trust Sikola to be accurate in her description of him. But I’m thinking that along with the act of homosexuality, he surely must condemn other acts as well: fornication and adultery, false gods, lies, stealing, swearing – all consistent with the 10 Commandments.
While I can spend an hour or responding in a meaning full way, I’ll take a public stance to by zeroing in on the statement of preaching “Jesus hates you.â€Â (I confess Jesus as my Lord, God and Savior. But those who do not, feel free to substitute God/Jehovah for Jesus.) And whether or not speaking about God’s hatred has gone over the “limitâ€Â of freedom of speech. (Or is it just the speaking of God?) Well, just as God loves, God does hate. “Jacob I loved; Esau I have hated.â€Â (Romans 9:12) There are a number of verses to back this up. Just Google “Does God Hateâ€Â and there are a number of sites that will list these scriptures. So to say that Jesus hates is a true statement. So, what does the God of love hate? Sin.
And now I move into an area where I don’t think there is much tolerance from those who preach tolerance. Are there things that a man can do for which we as humans hate him? Murder? Lies? Stealing? Drunkenness? Adultery? And now I move into the area in which God hates and man may or may not. Sensuousness? Dressing as to elicit the lusts of the flesh. How about fornication? Yeah, that’s sex outside of marriage. How about sex with children? I would hope most of agree with that, but there are those who don’t. How about homosexuality? Sex with a person of the same sex. Seems like a lot of sin is connected to inappropriate sex. These and more are listed as reasons for being barred from the Kingdom of the Heavens. Please understand I do not speak of hating the person, but the act that the person engages in. According to “Christianâ€Â Biblical values, they are sin and, my God hates sin. I confess that I am a sinner. I am not throwing stones. My only salvation is Jesus.
Back to the point of whether we should oust the man preaching “Jesus hatesâ€Â near the peace garden. Are we saying that only love of every man doing whatever he wants will produce peace? I don’t think Martin Luther King or Caesar Chavez or Jane Addams or even Gandhi would agree. And if the Jesus-hates preachers are not allowed freedom of speech, who will be next?
Diane K. Miniel • Sep 23, 2008 at 2:23 pm
My fellow MFA graduate student has chosen to take a public stance against our constitution’s freedom of speech because she is offended over a preacher who preaches “hate.” She questions “. . . shouldn’t there be a limit when it comes to free speech?” She points out that the religious man, whom I’ve not seen or heard lately””there is always someone who chooses a Jeremiah/John the Baptist “Repent for the Kingdom of the Heavens is near” role on a campus””but I do trust Sikola to be accurate in her description of him. But I’m thinking that along with the act of homosexuality, he surely must condemn other acts as well: fornication and adultery, false gods, lies, stealing, swearing ”“ all consistent with the 10 Commandments.
While I can spend an hour or responding in a meaning full way, I’ll take a public stance to by zeroing in on the statement of preaching “Jesus hates you.” (I confess Jesus as my Lord, God and Savior. But those who do not, feel free to substitute God/Jehovah for Jesus.) And whether or not speaking about God’s hatred has gone over the “limit” of freedom of speech. (Or is it just the speaking of God?) Well, just as God loves, God does hate. “Jacob I loved; Esau I have hated.” (Romans 9:12) There are a number of verses to back this up. Just Google “Does God Hate” and there are a number of sites that will list these scriptures. So to say that Jesus hates is a true statement. So, what does the God of love hate? Sin.
And now I move into an area where I don’t think there is much tolerance from those who preach tolerance. Are there things that a man can do for which we as humans hate him? Murder? Lies? Stealing? Drunkenness? Adultery? And now I move into the area in which God hates and man may or may not. Sensuousness? Dressing as to elicit the lusts of the flesh. How about fornication? Yeah, that’s sex outside of marriage. How about sex with children? I would hope most of agree with that, but there are those who don’t. How about homosexuality? Sex with a person of the same sex. Seems like a lot of sin is connected to inappropriate sex. These and more are listed as reasons for being barred from the Kingdom of the Heavens. Please understand I do not speak of hating the person, but the act that the person engages in. According to “Christian” Biblical values, they are sin and, my God hates sin. I confess that I am a sinner. I am not throwing stones. My only salvation is Jesus.
Back to the point of whether we should oust the man preaching “Jesus hates” near the peace garden. Are we saying that only love of every man doing whatever he wants will produce peace? I don’t think Martin Luther King or Caesar Chavez or Jane Addams or even Gandhi would agree. And if the Jesus-hates preachers are not allowed freedom of speech, who will be next?
Courtney Miller • Sep 22, 2008 at 11:52 pm
As a person who grew up in the Cristian faith, I am enraged by how they drag the teachings of Christ through the mud with their hatred. This is hate speech. I work at varying hours throughout Tuesday and Thursday that force me to cross these people several times a day. I feel threatened by this, and I feel that anyone who does not agree with these religious values may also feel threatened by this. In the past, a preacher acting in the same way as this became enraged with a woman for opposing his beliefs, and he assaulted her. I feel that I should be able to work and study in a safe environment. This hostility is aimed at one group that deserves to attend school that they pay almost $2,000 a semester for without listening to hateful messages aimed at them, and so do I. Haven’t we repeatedly stood against those who attack groups based on racial or gender distinctions? How are these people different? Remember, if they will victimize one group, they will take on another. How much longer will it be before they start yelling at women again, insulting us for our clothing choices? How long before they take on another group or act violently again? Enough is enough.
Courtney Miller • Sep 23, 2008 at 6:52 am
As a person who grew up in the Cristian faith, I am enraged by how they drag the teachings of Christ through the mud with their hatred. This is hate speech. I work at varying hours throughout Tuesday and Thursday that force me to cross these people several times a day. I feel threatened by this, and I feel that anyone who does not agree with these religious values may also feel threatened by this. In the past, a preacher acting in the same way as this became enraged with a woman for opposing his beliefs, and he assaulted her. I feel that I should be able to work and study in a safe environment. This hostility is aimed at one group that deserves to attend school that they pay almost $2,000 a semester for without listening to hateful messages aimed at them, and so do I. Haven’t we repeatedly stood against those who attack groups based on racial or gender distinctions? How are these people different? Remember, if they will victimize one group, they will take on another. How much longer will it be before they start yelling at women again, insulting us for our clothing choices? How long before they take on another group or act violently again? Enough is enough.
Concerned-student • Sep 22, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Sounds like hate speech at the free speech area. How should we deal hate speech on campus? Fresno State’s campus, along with all institutions of higher education, should be a place where every student can feel safe to pursue their education. I feel that Fresno is still a really conservative city. I am waiting for this city and campus to get out of the dark ages of religious and political intolerance.
Concerned-student • Sep 23, 2008 at 5:46 am
Sounds like hate speech at the free speech area. How should we deal hate speech on campus? Fresno State’s campus, along with all institutions of higher education, should be a place where every student can feel safe to pursue their education. I feel that Fresno is still a really conservative city. I am waiting for this city and campus to get out of the dark ages of religious and political intolerance.
Jamie • Sep 22, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Their should be a limit in the free speech area, if more students feel the same we should petition to get that harassing nut case out of here. I have nothing against people who express their religious beliefs but come on most of the stuff he so called “preaches” is heinous.
Jamie • Sep 22, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Their should be a limit in the free speech area, if more students feel the same we should petition to get that harassing nut case out of here. I have nothing against people who express their religious beliefs but come on most of the stuff he so called “preaches” is heinous.
Ashley Wells • Sep 22, 2008 at 9:16 am
I think that these points are incredibly important, particularly with proposition 8 on the upcoming November ballot. Proposition 8 is the marriage ban, if passed it will deny our fellow community members rights that others enjoy freely. Some folks, like the preacher on campus, endorse prop 8 for religious reasons, they use the same rhetoric that the preacher does (although most in a less aggressive way). But it is important to note, that if prop 8 gets voted down it will not force religious institutions to perform marriages for anyone they don’t want to–they have never had to do that and never will. It will mean, however, that the goverment cannot discriminate against anyone in our community.
This preacher is enjoying his right to free speech at the expense of many students, but it is his right nonetheless. Just as he is enjoying freedom of religion. In Novemeber we as Californians have the opportunity to uphold the freedom to marry, and to make a clear statement that discrimination against anyone for whatever reason is wrong, and Californians won’t participate in it.
If anyone wants more information about Prop 8 or would like to be a part of the no on props 4 and 8 campaign on campus please email me at [email protected]
Ashley Wells • Sep 22, 2008 at 4:16 pm
I think that these points are incredibly important, particularly with proposition 8 on the upcoming November ballot. Proposition 8 is the marriage ban, if passed it will deny our fellow community members rights that others enjoy freely. Some folks, like the preacher on campus, endorse prop 8 for religious reasons, they use the same rhetoric that the preacher does (although most in a less aggressive way). But it is important to note, that if prop 8 gets voted down it will not force religious institutions to perform marriages for anyone they don’t want to–they have never had to do that and never will. It will mean, however, that the goverment cannot discriminate against anyone in our community.
This preacher is enjoying his right to free speech at the expense of many students, but it is his right nonetheless. Just as he is enjoying freedom of religion. In Novemeber we as Californians have the opportunity to uphold the freedom to marry, and to make a clear statement that discrimination against anyone for whatever reason is wrong, and Californians won’t participate in it.
If anyone wants more information about Prop 8 or would like to be a part of the no on props 4 and 8 campaign on campus please email me at [email protected]